As usual...

[melon]

...Christians stick their nose in where they're not wanted.

School Cancels Diversity Day Over 'Ex-Gay' Demands

March 21, 2006 - 9:00 pm ET

(Viroqua, Wisconsin) For the second time Viroqua High School has cancelled Diversity Day after conservative Christians balked at the inclusion of gay speakers.

The day, held every two years for juniors and seniors, was to have been held on Thursday as a opportunity to promote diversity in the community.

Speakers were to have included representatives of the African American, Latino, Jewish, Muslim, native American and gay communities.

But, Liberty Counsel, a Florida-based public interest law firm that regularly fights LGBT civil rights issues notified the school that it represented Pastor Don Greven of Bad Axe Lutheran Church and Charles Lind, grandfather of a Viroqua High senior who were concerned that representatives of the so-called ex-gay movement or other Christians opposed to homosexuality were not invited to speak.

Liberty Counsel, in a fax to the school, obtained by the La Crosse Tribune, warned that if Diversity Day went on the school could face legal action.

“By excluding the Christian and ex-gay viewpoints, the District violates the Establishment Clause and the Fourteenth Amendment guarantee of equal protection,” the fax said.

It also said that a federal court in Michigan had ruled unconstitutional a similar exclusion at Ann Arbor Public Schools event.

Following receipt of the threat the school cancelled diversity activities.

The last Diversity Day, in 2004, was cancelled after several hundred people signed a petition opposing a speaker on LGBT issues.

So, by their logic, should we cancel public celebrations of Martin Luther King Day, because the KKK isn't invited to speak?

Melon

 

[Bono's shades]

Bad Axe Lutheran Church??

This is ridiculous.

I hope that ruling in Michigan gets overturned.

 

[yolland]

I suppose whether there's any potential unfairness to Christians in a *general* sense (14th Amendment approaches aside) depends on how similar the sort of information Pastor Greven's people would provide is to the sort of information that the Jewish and Muslim speakers would provide. If the latter planned to talk about theology and ethics rather than communal identity and lifestyle, that could be a problem. "Ex-gay" speakers are another matter entirely, and obviously didn't belong there; it can't very well be a question of diversity and a question of mental illness at the same time. It's not supposed to be Oppositionality Day, anyway, and that should apply to all parties involved.

I tend, though, to dislike these sorts of functions in general because they wind up effectively being "Otherness Day," and the taken-for-grantedness of the "We" implicitly being invoked there kind of undercuts the whole enterprise, IMO. Unless there's a compelling case to be made that this approach better serves the greater social good than others, I guess.

 

[verte76]

This is tricky. It does look like someone is being left out when you tell anyone they can't come.

 

[nbcrusader]

Why did the school cancel? Potential for too much inclusion?

 

[Irvine511]

Why did the school cancel? Potential for too much inclusion?

it must be difficult being a straight, white, married, male, Christian lawyer.

 

[nbcrusader]

Only here

 

[Irvine511]

Only here

aw, there, there. we include you in *every* discussion

 

[nbcrusader]

Let's stick to the subject instead of turning this into a personalized "who gets to have an opinion" thread.

 

[Irvine511]

Let's stick to the subject instead of turning this into a personalized "who gets to have an opinion" thread.

there's that victim mentality again ...

 

[nbcrusader]

there's that victim mentality again ...

Which is actually what was displayed by the school when, faced with the prospects of having to permit some to speak, decided to cancel the event.

How hypocritical to trumpet a "Diversity Day" but close it down when you lose control of the message. I thought speech was the best counter to speech.

 

[BVS]

Why did the school cancel? Potential for too much inclusion?

How can you promote inclusion, when one group is there to denounce another?

Up to this point, these groups never had a speaker who's agenda was to tell another group they were wrong.

 

[BVS]

How hypocritical to trumpet a "Diversity Day" but close it down when you lose control of the message.

Yes the message has been lost. The message of DIVERSITY.

 

[nbcrusader]

How can you promote inclusion, when one group is there to denounce another?

Up to this point, these groups never had a speaker who's agenda was to tell another group they were wrong.

Now, we won't know what they planned on saying, so the characterization of what they were going to say is your own.

And doesn't that violate the core belief of the First Amendment - that we do not evaluate the substance of speech?

 

[BVS]

Now, we won't know what they planned on saying, so the characterization of what they were going to say is your own.

And doesn't that violate the core belief of the First Amendment - that we do not evaluate the substance of speech?

Well I think we can assume with confidence what an "ex-gay" group will say.

Yes it violates the first amendment, but this wasn't the issue of the "Diversity Day". Just like Melon said, you wouldn't have the KKK speak on MLK day.

If this was an open forum of ideas I would agree with you, but this a day to celebrate the differences we have, not to tell any of these different groups that they are wrong.

 

[Irvine511]

How hypocritical to trumpet a "Diversity Day" but close it down when you lose control of the message. I thought speech was the best counter to speech.

hardly.

the promotion of "ex-gays" is designed precisely to counter the existence of the diversity of sexual orientation. "ex-gays" are trotted out to tell people that, really, there isn't such a thing as sexual orientation, just a deviant sexual desire that can be corrected through prayer.

putting an "ex-gay" on the same platform as a gay person is akin to telling a black person that their skin color is simply a figment (a pigment?) of their imagination, and it has about the same intellectual merit as comparing evolution to creationism.

there are also no claims made by "ex-gays" to be a part of any sort of subculture or group in the US -- in fact, what is an "ex-gay" but a straight person? chances are, 95% of the school is straight, what is the value of trotting out an "ex-gay" who's presentation would be, most likely, overtly religious in nature -- since not a single member of the APA would ever condone reparative therapy for homosexuality, nor would they ever encourage someone to change their sexuality, and the "ex-gay" movement is 100% Christianist in its origins -- and who's presence would do little to provide both exposure to the larger world of sexual diversity to the straight masses as well as a small measure of comfort to the terrified gay kids who have to live each and every day in the terribly heterosexist world of high school.

 

[Irvine511]

Now, we won't know what they planned on saying, so the characterization of what they were going to say is your own.

here's what they would say: http://www.exodus-international.org/

 

[nbcrusader]

If this was an open forum of ideas I would agree with you, but this a day to celebrate the differences we have, not to tell any of these different groups that they are wrong.

Just to be clear, it is a day to celebrate some of the differences we have.

 

[Irvine511]

Just to be clear, it is a day to celebrate some of the differences we have.

yes, some of the obvious differences we have -- their obviousness is due to the degree to which society has traditionally used such differences to erect socially exclusive barriers between groups, and your average freshman could tell you what those are: race, religion, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation.

i think it's cutting off your nose to spite your face to say that, "well, since we can't talk about our different hair color, then we have no place talking about racial differences."

and "ex-gay" groups are there to celebrate nothing but their "freedom" from homosexuality.

 

[BVS]

Just to be clear, it is a day to celebrate some of the differences we have.

True they could have included neo-nazis, KKK, polygamists, wiccans, etc...

 

[verte76]

The problem is that these people who want in were commonly considered "fringe" until fairly recently. Now they are mainstream because they have a representative in the White House. And they want to denounce a whole group of people. That's an attack on diversity itself, something the event is supposed to celebrate.

 

[nbcrusader]

And they want to denounce a whole group of people.

Again, that is a strawman argument to justify exclusion. Paint the agenda in the most damning way possible and you can feel better that you've excluded them.

 

[BVS]

Again, that is a strawman argument to justify exclusion. Paint the agenda in the most damning way possible and you can feel better that you've excluded them.

Kinda like the strawman arguments that "christian" groups use to deny homosexuals inclusion in their churches?

 

[verte76]

Again, that is a strawman argument to justify exclusion. Paint the agenda in the most damning way possible and you can feel better that you've excluded them.

The whole purpose of the event is to promote toleration of differences. But these people don't want to accept certain differences. Why should they be included? I agree with melon, by the same logic you would have to include the Ku Klux Klan.

 

[Irvine511]

Again, that is a strawman argument to justify exclusion. Paint the agenda in the most damning way possible and you can feel better that you've excluded them.

no, that's what they do. look at the signs and language. they say, "i am proof that you can change/you don't have to be this way."

the existence of an "ex-gay" is absolutely crucial to the religiously-informed supersititon that homosexuality arises through bad parenting (weak fathers, overbearing mothers) and that there is no such thing as a "natural" homosexual.

it is deliberately antagonistic.

"ex-gays" are used to attempt to refute everything that has been written and said about the origins and nature of homosexuality by the medical community -- that homosexuality is 100% involuntary, a large component of it is genetic, that no one chooses to be gay, and that being gay is not a disorder. the "ex-gay" movement/manipulation seeks to refute those facts. this is a very clear-cut case of pitting theology against science.

ask yourself this: would the "ex-gays" have asked for "inclusion" at the event had there not been gay speakers?

 

[nbcrusader]

So, are you claiming that the person who is an "ex-gay" was not a real homosexual in the first place?

 

[a-mole]

i do not think a mere school needs to have this gigantic thing where e-v-e-r-y group that is out there has to speak. for chirst's sake.. it is a school trying to have a day where some people speak about the most present diversity issues.
sure, not everyone can come, but that is normal. it is not a national official kinda thing. As for the question of wh y canceling it all:
fighting and arguing with everyone goes a bit over the top of what a school has to organize for a day that is supposed to give students the opportunity to hear some voices. You cannot include everything and educate everyone in a day anyways.
Gay people where not allowe din the St Patrick's Day parade... no prob. But a friggin school will get sued for exclusion. Alone the agressive behavior / threat towards the school gives fat minus points. In the end the students loose and nothing gets done.

 

[Irvine511]

So, are you claiming that the person who is an "ex-gay" was not a real homosexual in the first place?

no, i'm claiming that an "ex-gay" is still a homosexual living in sad denial and a victim of religious abuse.

 

[melon]

So, are you claiming that the person who is an "ex-gay" was not a real homosexual in the first place?

First off, you miss the point. You don't put in people opposed to diversity in a diversity event. If Christians wanted to come up and talk about themselves in a completely neutral manner--like the Jews, Muslims, blacks and gays--I would have had no problem.

The trouble is, Christians aren't there to talk about themselves; they're there only to berate one of the other groups at the event. Period. Christians, in this case, are no different from the average schoolyard bully or garden variety racist or anti-Semite. The KKK is freely allowed to believe what it wants, but I'm sorry...they're never going to be invited to a diversity event. And likewise, if Christians cannot tolerate diversity and are only there to berate one or more of the members there, then they're not welcome.

When Christianity has something grown up and mature to offer to the table, then let's hear it. But if its going to pout and moan like a petulant child, then it can continue to sit in the corner and take a time out.

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

Funny, it seems as if there has been plenty of opportunity to berate the so called "ex-gay" individual. Shout him down and keep him from speaking.

Sounds just like the actions you complain of.