Are We Failing At All Levels?

[anitram]

And in theory the LSATs should be the fairest of all tests. Its the hardest to crack with studing (due to the logic problems) and the writting part is not graded but sent off to the schools you apply to.

Actually, the Logic Games section is the easiest section to learn on the LSAT. It is the one section which sees the greatest improvement in score upon taking a prep course or completing 20+ preptests.

I didn't take a prep test myself for the LSAT and got a very, very good scrore. I got 23/23 on the LG section, but that was only because after 10 or so prep tests, the types of games are all easily structured and obvious to solve. It's again a poor measure of aptitude and a better measure of either who has more time on their hands or who has money enough to be instructed on how to approach the problems.

 

[Tarvark]

Actually, the Logic Games section is the easiest section to learn on the LSAT. It is the one section which sees the greatest improvement in score upon taking a prep course or completing 20+ preptests.

I didn't take a prep test myself for the LSAT and got a very, very good scrore. I got 23/23 on the LG section, but that was only because after 10 or so prep tests, the types of games are all easily structured and obvious to solve. It's again a poor measure of aptitude and a better measure of either who has more time on their hands or who has money enough to be instructed on how to approach the problems.

I did not know that, I have not taken the LSAT, acctually thats interesting.

Although I would think in terms of Law School, though the LSAT might matter a good deal, would it not be the applicants college file that would be paramount?

I.E. Wouldnt an applicant from Yale fare better then an applicant from Macalaster, despite merit, anyway?

 

[yolland]

I.E. Wouldnt an applicant from Yale fare better then an applicant from Macalaster, despite merit, anyway?

I teach international relations, not law, but at least for our grad students, where a student earned their BA (and even more so their MA, if they're PhD candidates) is not per se relevant. GPA, GRE and writing sample quality are the essential criteria for MAs; for PhDs these are also important, but additionally they must have a proposed plan of study and well defined objectives which fit the resources our department has to offer.

Incidentally, in the humanities at least, the Ivies are notorious for poor graduate career advising and not going the extra mile to help place their graduate students.

 

[Liesje]

I am so SICK of people always blaming the public school system for failure. Like Dread said, there a number of factors that contribute to failure, parental involement and environment being at the top of the list. People want to point the finger at schools when a high school senior admits he/she can't read. Parents ask "How can the school system not know my child can't read?" My question to that person would be "You are this child's parent. How can you not know your child can't read?"

This is exactly it. I remember learning to read, and it was something I was good at, never really had trouble like my sibs, but I still remember spending an hour or two everynight with my mom or dad going through the spelling words and the readers. And when my parents weren't around, I had to sit and read with my grandma. Also, some of my fondest childhood memories are my mom reading to me and my sibs. It was usually more fun than going to the movies.

I just don't get it when parents simply don't care, or make up ten thousan excuses why it's not their responsibility to care. And it's not only the parents direct involvement, but the parent's lack of concern for other enrivronmental factors. For example, the kids in my old neighborhood who went to the public schools - not only did their parents not care about their education, but their parents did not encourage them to do homework, they didn't monitor how their kids were spending their time and who they were spending time with. One of my friends/neighbor as a kid was terrible in school b/c his life revolved around his dad being in prison, his mom changing jobs every other day, and his friends wanting to be gangsters and drug dealers. How is a twelve year old supposed to focus on school on his own in an environment like that?

 

[yolland]

Since the article which kicked off this thread was specifically about the thinking skills of students in the *advanced* stages of their schooling...and since the importance of parental contributions keeps coming up...

What SHOULD parents of high school kids specifically be doing to help further their children's educational progress? You can read with your second grader, help them with their science fair projects, keep television and recreational computer use to a judicious minimum, etc. Much of this is not relevant to the needs and skill level of high school students, however (maybe the last one). What ARE the things parents can and should do at this stage? Or are their roles as active contributors to their children's education more or less at an end by this point?

 

[Liesje]

Since the article which kicked off this thread was specifically about the thinking skills of students in the *advanced* stages of their schooling...and since the importance of parental contributions keeps coming up...

What SHOULD parents of high school kids specifically be doing to help further their children's educational progress? You can read with your second grader, help them with their science fair projects, keep television and recreational computer use to a judicious minimum, etc. Much of this is not relevant to the needs and skill level of high school students, however (maybe the last one). What ARE the things parents can and should do at this stage? Or are their roles as active contributors to their children's education more or less at an end by this point?

I don't think so. It's less direct tbough. I'll just give you my own experience. My parents never made any rules or forced me to do school work. On the flip side, I was totally independent. They didn't give me any money, I didn't have a car of theirs to use, they didn't take me and my friends on trips. Some of my friends were not very good in school, which is fine, but their parents would always be giving them money and inviting us over or taking us places. How do they expect their kids, who already have trouble focusing, are ever going to catch up in school when they're constantly providing a more fun alternative? I think at a high school level, the parents should at least do their best to provide an environment that encourages school work and takes away other distractions.

 

[nbcrusader]

Since the article which kicked off this thread was specifically about the thinking skills of students in the *advanced* stages of their schooling...and since the importance of parental contributions keeps coming up...

What SHOULD parents of high school kids specifically be doing to help further their children's educational progress? You can read with your second grader, help them with their science fair projects, keep television and recreational computer use to a judicious minimum, etc. Much of this is not relevant to the needs and skill level of high school students, however (maybe the last one). What ARE the things parents can and should do at this stage? Or are their roles as active contributors to their children's education more or less at an end by this point?

I think setting clear expectations may be beneficial (not "you must get all 'A's" but more along the line of "you must put your best effort into your work" and "homework come before television"). While it is important for children to learn to act independently, parents frequently abdicate the role of parent nd want the easier role of friend.

Frankly, I was shocked at the inability to calculate simple percentages. This can be mastered by 6th grade.

 

[Irvine511]

But the entire point of trying to pick out "brainy" people on an aptitude test has since been dispelled by Kaplan et al. who showed definitively that SATs (and other standardized tests, even the LSAT which is seen as the toughest one to study for) can be learnt and can be taught. And in this day and age, the amounts of $$ being spent on prep classes, tutors, prep books and so on is absolutely staggering. Which all points to the SATs as being incredibly flawed.

i've taught classes for Kaplan.

you're giving them/him WAY too much credit.



i take your point though -- i think the truth is that the SAT is a test, and as such has it's own logic, it's own rules, and it's own weaknesses. if you understand the test, ANY standardized test, its own logic can be understood and then you can use it to your advantage.

that said, i don't think the SAT tells you much. it stands to reason that smart people are going to do well on the SAT, but it also stands to reason that smart people are not gonig to do well on the SAT for a variety of reasons.

that said, i think that "studying" for the SAT is a great idea, and i don't have any problems with all students who apply to college have to take some kind of test so that at least we can make some sort of comparison between applicants. getting into elite universities and liberal arts colleges is extraordinarily competitive, and at least the SAT tosses in some way to measure one student against another (i.e., my public high school was arguably the best one in the state, we had what might be called grade "deflation" with virtually no one getting straight A's, yet we had several kids get perfect SAT scores and a good portion of the class went on to Ivy-type colleges).

i also like the idea of 16 and 17 year olds having to go over mountains of really rather difficult vocabulary words, working on their critical reading skills, and reviewing at least Geometry and Algebra as part of preparation for the SAT. when i was undergoing SAT training, it was amazing to me both how much i had remembered, and how beneficial the training was to solidify, forever, mathematical concepts i had left behind in high school.

however, the SAT industry is neauseating, i agree with that.

 

[Irvine511]

I think setting clear expectations may be beneficial (not "you must get all 'A's" but more along the line of "you must put your best effort into your work" and "homework come before television"). While it is important for children to learn to act independently, parents frequently abdicate the role of parent nd want the easier role of friend.

i think this is true, but at the end of the day, in high school, it's mostly about the "culture" you child is in, i.e. who their peer group is.

i happened to have been a part of a highly motivated clique in high school; we weren't quite the supernerds, but more the "all-around achievers" who werent' supposed to look like they were sweating it out, even though everyone really was behind closed doors. the trick was to make it look effortless. at the end of the day, after a certain age, kids listen to their friends and not their parents.

anyway, my parents never, ever had to tell me to study (except for a brief period in 8th grade when i decided it was no longer cool to be smart ... this was knocked out of me halfway through 9th grade when my grades actually did reflect my effort). the only thing my parents ever did, especially when i'd go through moments of being stressed or tried or just plain teenaged whiney, was to say, "you know you won't be happy unless you do well on that test/paper." by putting the emphasis back on me, and saying, "it's not us that won't be happy, it's that we know *you* won't be happy," was a great way to take responsibility for my actions and it has served me well in the long run as i've taken a very wayward career path from most of my other friends (who all seem to be in law school) and the tenacity and sometimes sheer pigheadedness i learned in high school has gotten me to a unique and sometimes terrifying but very interesting place in my life.

 

[nbcrusader]

i happened to have been a part of a highly motivated clique in high school; we weren't quite the supernerds, but more the "all-around achievers" who werent' supposed to look like they were sweating it out, even though everyone really was behind closed doors. the trick was to make it look effortless. at the end of the day, after a certain age, kids listen to their friends and not their parents.

anyway, my parents never, ever had to tell me to study (except for a brief period in 8th grade when i decided it was no longer cool to be smart ... this was knocked out of me halfway through 9th grade when my grades actually did reflect my effort). the only thing my parents ever did, especially when i'd go through moments of being stressed or tried or just plain teenaged whiney, was to say, "you know you won't be happy unless you do well on that test/paper." by putting the emphasis back on me, and saying, "it's not us that won't be happy, it's that we know *you* won't be happy," was a great way to take responsibility for my actions and it has served me well in the long run as i've taken a very wayward career path from most of my other friends (who all seem to be in law school) and the tenacity and sometimes sheer pigheadedness i learned in high school has gotten me to a unique and sometimes terrifying but very interesting place in my life.

Sounds like your parents laid a strong foundation for you earlier in your life - teaching you to take responsibility for your own growth at a later age.

 

[Irvine511]

Sounds like your parents laid a strong foundation for you earlier in your life - teaching you to take responsibility for your own growth at a later age.

that's a good point.

makes me wonder how much parents, at the beginning, can help their children to make good choices especially about things as important as peer groups.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I can't remember my parents ever being involved in my education when I was in HS-my Mother worked and my Father,well no interest whatsoever there. As a kid my Mother did encourage reading, I remember that.

I was self motivated to do well, and I'm sure I realized my Mother would give me crap if I got poor grades. It was sort of an unspoken given, and I was also a perfectionist. I had household responsibilities because she worked, but other than that I had no job until college-and no social life in hs either.

Maybe there are too many other factors distracting students (such as internet, which wasn't an issue for me). I don't know and I'm not making any kind of judgment on that, but maybe..

I do believe education is in large part what the student makes of it, it's easy to blame the teachers. I had good teachers in my public hs, but some weren't as good as others so I made up the difference myself so to speak. Older students can't make up for utterly horrible teachers, but they can't abdicate their role in their own education either.

 

[yolland]

Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
How do they expect their kids, who already have trouble focusing, are ever going to catch up in school when they're constantly providing a more fun alternative?
Originally posted by nbcrusader
While it is important for children to learn to act independently, parents frequently abdicate the role of parent nd want the easier role of friend.
Originally posted by Irvine511
the only thing my parents ever did, especially when i'd go through moments of being stressed or tried or just plain teenaged whiney, was to say, "you know you won't be happy unless you do well on that test/paper."

*takes notes for future reference*

Originally posted by Irvine511
i think this is true, but at the end of the day, in high school, it's mostly about the "culture" you child is in, i.e. who their peer group is.

i happened to have been a part of a highly motivated clique in high school; we weren't quite the supernerds, but more the "all-around achievers" who werent' supposed to look like they were sweating it out, even though everyone really was behind closed doors.

makes me wonder how much parents, at the beginning, can help their children to make good choices especially about things as important as peer groups.

This sounds a lot like who my friends were in high school. And a lot of them wound up in law school too. I don't think I was attracted to them because they were "achievers" per se, though--it's more that these were the peers who most shared my love of the kinds of conversations, from ferocious political debates to enthusing about some novel that just blew your mind to smirking Pythonesque jokes, that could really only be enjoyed by people who are constantly learning, constantly analyzing all aspects of the environment around them, and hungry for a future filled with more of the same.

I do give my parents, and my siblings as well, a lot of credit for my attraction to such people. In fact, what I described about the interactions with my friends characterizes an awful lot of the interactions that went on in our home, too (including the razor-sharp humor, though I'm afraid I didn't get as much of this gene as some of my siblings). And even in high school actually, my parents were still actively involved in our learning, because we studied Talmud with my dad on weekends (not the sort of thing our tiny and and poor community had the resources to offer) and my mother taught us Greek (which really helped with the SATs, though that wasn't the main point). It wasn't driven or nerdy or tediously dutiful; it was fun. So I figure I got a pretty good foundation for being motivated to love all the places that being serious about your studies can take you to from an early age. And this despite the fact that rural Mississippi schools were sadly underfunded, option-poor crap, even at the "Honors" level. As a professor, I feel a special affection for those students who come from "bad" school systems (and sometimes reveal it in various minor random deficiencies--I had PLENTY when I started college!) but nonethless, have obviously come from a social background that made them hungry to learn and motivated to exert themselves.

 

[Irvine511]

I do give my parents, and my siblings as well, a lot of credit for my attraction to such people. In fact, what I described about the interactions with my friends characterizes an awful lot of the interactions that went on in our home, too (including the razor-sharp humor, though I'm afraid I didn't get as much of this gene as some of my siblings). And even in high school actually, my parents were still actively involved in our learning, because we studied Talmud with my dad on weekends (not the sort of thing our tiny and and poor community had the resources to offer) and my mother taught us Greek (which really helped with the SATs, though that wasn't the main point). It wasn't driven or nerdy or tediously dutiful; it was fun. So I figure I got a pretty good foundation for being motivated to love all the places that being serious about your studies can take you to from an early age. And this despite the fact that rural Mississippi schools were sadly underfunded, option-poor crap, even at the "Honors" level. As a professor, I feel a special affection for those students who come from "bad" school systems (and sometimes reveal it in various minor random deficiencies--I had PLENTY when I started college!) but nonethless, have obviously come from a social background that made them hungry to learn and motivated to exert themselves.

i think this underscores the fundamental importance of parents and home environments when it comes to raising life-long learners and people who will be motivated enough to equip themselves with knowledge.

i came from a very different town than you -- it was an affluent (though not blue blood, important distinction) white suburb filled with professional class "strivers." achievement was everything, whether it be sheer academics, art, theater, music, sports, whatever. there were plenty of resources offered by the school (even though we didn't have an on-campus pool ) and most parents had both the time and the extra money to supplement whatever extracurricular activities offered by the school both after school and on weekends. i swam for my high school, but i was also swimming 10 months a year outside of the school. when i was in elementary school i played the string bass (hated it), but my mother brought me to private lessons once in a while when i somehow wound up in some invitation-only orchestra (i have very fuzzy memories of this ... i think it happened without my knowledge).

however, what can happen is that all of these achievement tools can suck the joy out of each activity, everything becomes just another notch on the resume for applying to the same 20-or-so northeastern colleges that everyone else is trying to get into, and simply because you're carted from piano lessons to SAT class to hocky practice does not mean that you're actually learning to love any of it. i see lots of kids who are 18 and totally burned out -- they've been raised to be achievement machines and not people (which is why i really don't understand when people talk about "kids today" and that they don't know anything ... based on my experience, it has never, ever been harder to get into competitive colleges and i also think that the education curriculum has been ratched up and expectations are higher than ever ... there's no time, sadly, to read "call of the wild" to your 7th grade class on a friday afternoon when there is vocabulary to memorize).

i think that one thing our parents had in common, Yolland, was to instill the joy of learning something for the sake of learning it. that it's simply fun to know things, and it's fun to engage in political conversation -- always a dish served at dinner. i remember how thrilling it was when, in 1992, i was allowed to stay up late to watch the Clinton-Bush-Perot debates with my parents, and then listening to them discuss the issues -- i'd naturally want to be able to participate so i'd start reading newsweek cover-to-cover.

stuff like that is much more important than the resources that are available to you, or not available to you.

 

[Kristie]

Frankly, I was shocked at the inability to calculate simple percentages. This can be mastered by 6th grade.

I don't think it's that the skill wasn't mastered in the sixth grade, it's that once you get into high school you haven't had to do it without a calculator in years and you lose it. My friends and I always joked about how we could do trig and calculus but couldn't multiply single digit numbers in our head anymore... a skill everyone could do in a flash in the second grade. I'm not saying that's an excuse, just offering an explanation... and I think schools should put a little more emphasis on retention of skills.

 

[anitram]

There was a study done, I will have to ask my mother for the details as she has a copy of the results somewhere, the conclusion of which was that immigrant children are absolutely slaughtering American (Canadian, British, etc) born anglophones when it comes even to disciplines like spelling, whereas before it was restricted more to mathematics and science.

From a personal perspective, I can tell you that as a poor refugee kid (I can literally use that tired cliche of "I escaped with the clothes on my back"), I had a hell of a lot more incentive than local kids here did. My brother and I both overachieved, not only because our parents pushed us but because we understood very well that our family had nothing, no money and no connections, and that the only way we'd make it in this world would be of our own merit. When you have no safety net, and you desperately want to join the middle class and have your kids have better lives than you did, that's a powerful motivator that kids from generations of middle or upper middle classes cannot comprehend on the same level.

 

[nbcrusader]

Many kids look for an "out" and parents give it to them.

For example, a number of times, our 11 year old has said he would like to drop piano lessons (he has studied for 7 years now). Instead of simply saying "No, you must continue," we explain (i) how far he has come in those 7 years, and (ii) how it has helped him in other areas (such as math). It would be far easier (and cheaper) to let him quit.

 

[yolland]

however, what can happen is that all of these achievement tools can suck the joy out of each activity, everything becomes just another notch on the resume for applying to the same 20-or-so northeastern colleges that everyone else is trying to get into, and simply because you're carted from piano lessons to SAT class to hocky practice does not mean that you're actually learning to love any of it. i see lots of kids who are 18 and totally burned out -- they've been raised to be achievement machines and not people...

I think this is a very, very wise point. I do have some students who come from this sort of "soccer mom" culture you describe--though there's less of it here in the Midwest, and the competitive aspects are perhaps a bit less keen--and while they're certainly among my brightest and most capable students, they are often also among the least enthusiastic, and in *some* ways even the laziest. They will email me at all hours with sometimes comically anxious and anal questions about what EXACTLY I want for a specific assignment (which I find somewhat depressing, because taken cumulatively, it gives me the picture that meeting some empirical standard is their main goal). And I never have to sigh over the discrepancy between their ideas and their articulateness when grading, which is nice. But it seems they are never the ones who drop by my office to say Hey Dr S (my last name's a tonsil-splitter), I just wanted to talk to you about how fascinating all this stuff is and what some of my plans for using it in the future are and hear some more about what kind of directions other scholars and writers involved with these ideas are taking them in.

And I suspect, though I can't prove, that they are also among the most prone to quick-fix reliance on Google Scholar and the like when doing their research. I am constantly badgering the folks who teach freshman comp here with my stump speech about how they really need to make library skills, including academic database familiarity, a built-in component of their curriculum. It is really much harder than one might imagine for a professor to tell from a student's papers just how much research they really did: a good writer can come up with something quite worthy from a grading standpoint without actually reading very many outside resources, and if they can get away with A's for doing the minimum, many of them will. I know they are mostly only hurting themselves (though to some extent my profession's future, too) by doing this, but it makes me feel on some level like we've failed them if they graduate from college without proper respect for and love of research in its own right.

I imagine many of these feelings are shared in various different ways by, for example, swimming coaches and extracurricular activity advisors, too. We play soccer and basketball and hike with our kids, and they will all learn to swim (this is a religious obligation too, believe it or not--Talmud specifies that Jewish parents must see to it that their kids learn to swim, since it might someday save their lives or enable them to save another's). And when they get older, we will occasionally take them to town meetings and the like. But I would prefer that if they choose to pursue these things in a more regimented way later, then that would be because they personally love it and for no other reason, not because it pleases and impresses Mom and Dad or whoever else.

I hope when my kids get older there won't be grumbling about how observing Sabbath together means they can't be part of the many youth activities that take place on Saturday mornings and afternoons. Wasn't really an issue when and where I grew up.

 

[VertigoGal]

What country are you from originally anitram? You definitely have a point. I think in some cases it's not even personally experiencing poverty...like, for example, a lot of Asian immigrants have been very, very successful in a very short amount of time. I have Asian friends whose parents lived in public restrooms in China, yet by the time they were born in this country, they were richer than my family. But in general they tend to do really well in school because their parents drill the appreciation thing into their head, and because culturally there are such different expectations.

As far as the question about how involved parents need to be with high school students...it's always an added bonus to have parents that support you and encourage you, but at this point I think you really have to do it for yourself. A lot of kids really don't care, and a bunch more know they can scrape by without much effort and still get into a decent college and do fine in life (not a bad idea, sometimes I think I'm an idiot for being such an overachiever in f'ing high school! Maybe with the future of outsourcing it'll pay off.)

Personally, my dad read with me some when I was little, but for whatever reason it always came easily to me and I would do it on my own. I was just the type that could read chapter books before kindergarden, although my dad did make me feel really good about myself so that probably encouraged me. But my parents stopped telling me to do my homework in second grade (because I liked my homework in second grade and did it anyway! haha). One thing that my dad did that really helped me was to debate politics with me and make me feel like he took my opinion seriously, and most importantly helped me consider more than one angle. At age 10, I was sure Bush was evil, this was right before the 2000 elections. So my dad, who hasn't voted Republican since 1980, debated with me and literally reduced me to tears because he took Bush's "side" and made such a good case that I couldn't argue with a lot of his points.

I guess in that way my parents (well, my dad) have encouraged me to some extent. Although at the same time, in the last five years my parents have divorced/split up a few times, we've moved like 5 times (within the area), they've gone through a zillion jobs, a few overly expensive stays at rehab, lost the house, custody affidavits, the whole deal. I'm NOT saying that all situations are the same or that everyone that has some degree of a rough home life should just "suck it up." But it's not impossible to have less than a satisfactory family situation and still take it upon yourself to succeed. I guess my point is that ultimately high school students have to want to do well.

Also someone mentioned that there's not enough retention of skills and that we ought to have more review. Sorry, but are you kidding me?! Yeah, the logarithms can clog my brain to the point of forgetting how to divide occasionally...but SO much of the cirriculum every year is stuff we've been learning since the 3rd grade. I wish I had some stats/links, but I saw some report that compared the percentage of review vs new material (in the maths and sciences specifically) in the US compared to several Asian countries. It was a pretty significant gap. Sometimes I wonder if we'd do better if we were just challenged more and forced to care in order to pass.

I doubt this post makes any sense at this point, but I think it's some sort of mixture of students that really don't care (and see no reason to), and a school system that allows them to slide through with that attitude.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

I believe parental involvement is crucial no matter what age a student is. Education will not be important to a student if it is not important at home. If parents take the "Oh well, you are a young adult now, and its up to you to care about your education." many students will fail. I've heard too many parents say something like this. Making a phone call home and hearing that type of statement from a parent is awful.

Every year my district takes a school improvement day to look at the school "report cards" for the Chicagoland area. Many of the schools with high immigrant populations are "failing" schools. This is mainly due to language barriers.

anitram, you and your brother are a fantastic story of overcoming the odds. Studies show time and again that children living in poverty underachieve.
Many childern do not have the lower portion of Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid met. (ie, they worry about food, where they are staying, etc.)

 

[yolland]

I guess in that way my parents (well, my dad) have encouraged me to some extent. Although at the same time, in the last five years my parents have divorced/split up a few times, we've moved like 5 times (within the area), they've gone through a zillion jobs, a few overly expensive stays at rehab, lost the house, custody affidavits, the whole deal. I'm NOT saying that all situations are the same or that everyone that has some degree of a rough home life should just "suck it up." But it's not impossible to have less than a satisfactory family situation and still take it upon yourself to succeed.

OK, forget what I said the other day about political science, because now I'm thinking maybe you would make a great counselor for situationally underprivileged kids! It is a credit to your heart as well as your mind that you remain able to recognize the good things that came out of your parents' example and and internalize it as a grounding to get you through all the other stuff.

 

[Dreadsox]

I have been asking parents to read with their children nightly. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN!!!!!!

ASk parents to get help children memorize thier basic facts...IT DOES NOT HAPPEN!!!!!

It starts in the elementary school. Give me students that have 1/2 the intelligence surrounded by a family with work ethic and I will show you success stories.

How many times in here have I mentioned that FATHERS are not doing their fucking jobs.

And it is showing more and more. Boys are falling further and further behind.....WHY?

On and on....

The best class I have ever had I had them for two years. I invested so much time in reading and basic facts inside the classroom I was able to make up the rest of the ground the following year and pass the more advanced students.

I had title one students score in the top 1% in the state in mathematics. But that is when they were mine for two years. I could invest the time, knowing that I had two years to work with them.

 

[Irvine511]

I had title one students score in the top 1% in the state in mathematics. But that is when they were mine for two years. I could invest the time, knowing that I had two years to work with them.

this is very interesting. i've had a small amount of exposure to elementary level education, and i knew of one teacher who traveled with her class from kindergarten to first grade because it was such a good group, there was a chemistry between her and the kids (this was true, i was an aid in her class several times), and she felt like she had more to give. i think in elementary school, this is a very good idea. relationships with teachers is tremendously important -- i absolutely credit most if not all of my enjoyment of elementary school to my 2nd grade teacher, mr. peterson. firstly, it was nice having a man as a teacher. but he was also an excellent teacher, and he simply understood me as a student, he knew how to make me study and how to reward good studying. for example, i remember studying really hard for a spelling test and getting a 100. great. but i also spelled the hardest word on the test -- "massachusetts," as i distinctly remember -- correctly, and i can still see his small writing of the word excellent just above the letters at the end of the word, as if he knew i had the most trouble remembering the two 't's' at the end. it was a detail like that, probably possible only when a teacher really knows a student, that can make a big, big difference, especially when a child is young.

good point about fathers, too.

 

[financeguy]

All of this applies to the UK and Irish systems as well.

It's bigger than just school standards or the perennial private vs public schooling debate. Our society is comprehensively dumbing down.

I am not optimistic that these problems will be fixed.

We have a society predicated on instant gratification.

 

[VertigoGal]

yolland you are one of the sweetest people here. I didn't mean to sound melodramatic, everyone has to deal with stuff and obviously someone like anitram has overcome a whole lot more. They do do the best they can trust me, I'd feel bad saying I'm "situationally underprivelaged"

Dread, you're right...my younger brother is in 4th grade and although he's done better this year (he has a teacher that's great with him), he's had a ton of trouble with basic reading. My parents have been so busy & work late and that's no excuse, but no one really reads with him. My dad and I have read the first 5 Harry Potter books to him and he loves it, but he gets frustrated and can't focus when he tries to read things himself. In my earlier post I made it sound like it's all a matter of personal initiative but particularly for younger kids they really need parents to be involved.

I'm sure you're a great teacher...my brother would love you actually because he's already obsessed with American history. He recently informed me that the Revolutionary War is his "favorite war."

 

[Dreadsox]

There are studetns where the two year connection is not a good thing....

On a side note.....I was just asked tonight to be the sponsor for a child being confirmed. I had him in my class six years ago. I have had very few interactions with him since he left my classroom, but he asked my Priest to ask me to sponsor him.

Connection I did not know I had made....strange.

 

[yolland]

The best class I have ever had I had them for two years. I invested so much time in reading and basic facts inside the classroom I was able to make up the rest of the ground the following year and pass the more advanced students.

Dread, are there any schools still out there that offer "alternative" programs like some schools had in the '70s, where three grades are put together in one classroom and children can more easily move back and forth between peers and curricula of different levels? I was briefly in such a program back in Mississippi (2nd-4th grades) before it went under, due to money issues as I recall, and while I can't speak to the pressures (and, I hope, opportunities as well) it imposed on the teachers, I personally found it to be by far the most academically stimulating school environment I was in prior to my late high school years. For sure there is nothing like it available where we live now.

 

[Dreadsox]

Interesting you should bring this up...

My daughter's school offers multi-age classrooms. There is a k-2 multiage room and a 3-5 multi ager room. We did not opt for it at the time. We may opt for it for my son because I think he is going to be well ahead of his kindergarten peers. The multi-age kindergarten would give him some running room to work at his level.

My daughter is an a looping classroom with the same teacher for the last two years. It was perfect for her.

 

[yolland]

Huh, well that's cool. Not saying this is the case with your son necessarily, but I think it's interesting how having older siblings can really give some kids a boost in developing academic skills. I worked as a teacher aide at a nursery school in college, and was often struck by the leg-up kids with older brothers and sisters seemed to have in everything from writing their name to telling time to representational drawing to conversational skills.

 

[BostonAnne]

On a side note.....I was just asked tonight to be the sponsor for a child being confirmed. I had him in my class six years ago. I have had very few interactions with him since he left my classroom, but he asked my Priest to ask me to sponsor him.

Connection I did not know I had made....strange.

That's really cool!