Are men feminists? - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-28-2006, 06:41 PM   #1
pgv
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,979
Local Time: 08:38 AM
Are men feminists?

I wasn't really sure where to post this, but it's something I've been wondering about for a while now.
Do men consider themselves feminists? And if not - why not? Is it simply because they are not women, or because they don't believe women should have equal rights as men? I don't know too much about feminism but as a teenage girl growing up in the 21st centuary I feel like I should do.
(I'm also doing an essay on this in english at the moment, and am trying to expand my knowledge on the subject!)
__________________

__________________
pgv is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 06:50 PM   #2
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 02:38 AM
I think there was a thread on this recently...?

I think that men can be feminists, and I think that women don't have to be feminists.

It all depends on how you define feminism. I took a course only on feminism and I still couldn't give a clear definition. If I can remember our reading material, I could give you some sources for your paper...
__________________

__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 06:51 PM   #3
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:38 AM
You might want to check out this thread we had on that topic a few weeks back.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 07:47 PM   #4
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:38 PM


double post.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 07:49 PM   #5
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:38 PM
Feminisms' lack of definition is its major downfall. You've got individual men who will stand up for it and demand that women have equal rights, but you have a silent many who just dont care enough and allow the inequality to continue. You've then got the women who claim to be loyal to the feminist cause, but are anything but. They're the ones who really get on my tits. We had another thread in here, different to the one yolland linked to (I think), in which the topic of women in the child bearing age and workplace opportunities came up. That in particular, made me seeth. The general view among childless career minded women, that they were disadvantaged by the threat of mothers being given their opportunities, was unbelievably destructive, angering, and archaic. Is THIS what feminism is getting us? Indifferent male masses, and corporate/career slave bitche types fighting to keep the inequality?

Makes me bloody mad.

How many damn children you have is as irrelevent as your gender. Or sexuality. Or age. Or race. Or pet snakes' name.

In other words, men and women are as bad at true feminism as each other. There was a point in all that, lol.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 08:05 PM   #6
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,271
Local Time: 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem You've then got the women who claim to be loyal to the feminist cause, but are anything but. They're the ones who really get on my tits.
And then:

Quote:
corporate/career slave bitche types
Is actually rather hilarious, back to back.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 08:21 PM   #7
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:38 PM
why? they are bitch types if they insist that women with children are denied the same opportunities. and they are an insult to feminism.

that little piece of irony is wonderful.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 08:24 PM   #8
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,271
Local Time: 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
why? they are bitch types if they insist that women with children are denied the same opportunities.
I honestly don't understand what that means.

But women in the corporate world have spent decades trying to get beyond the "corporate bitch" label, which, by the way, never gets thrown around at men who hold similar attitudes or characteristics, so to have other women still resorting to calling them that repulses me a bit. Just my .02.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 08:35 PM   #9
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:38 PM
Well, that's a bit unfortunate, isn't it. I know you're determined to pick fault with how I am presenting this point, but think of the women who have been fighting alongside you for decades to be afforded the same rights, hear women complain when they want their cake and to eat it too. Some women want children and a career. To have women who want only the career begrudge working mothers for fighting for the same opportunities and possibilities because they can take up to a year (or more) off to have children, is infuriating. How is that feminism? It's select feminism. It's saying "yeah, I agree with feminism as long as women agree to live and work as a man, with no kids (or have a wife to raise them if you're the bloke)". It's not putting women up on a level playing field at all. A comment you actually made in that other thread, got me so angry that I couldn't even reply at the time, so I guess we've both pissed each other off in this regard - which is unproductive to both ourselves/each other and the discussion. I simply question how you expect feminism to move forward and function with views like this. You personally can make whichever choices you like, and feminism (I'd certainly hope) fights to allow you to pursue a career on equal footing. Likewise, I'd hope it allows others to pursue both if they so choose. It is not at the detriment to the other. It shouldn't be, if we all fight for this with the same common goal.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 08:48 PM   #10
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,271
Local Time: 02:38 AM
Fair enough.

I was talking about a study that was actually conducted in Toronto and commenting on it and the attitudes I've encountered from women my age which seem to (some extent) support that study. Whether or not you find fault with that, fine, but I didn't frame that argument around what I think or how I feel, I framed it in terms of discussion of what is going on in the corporate world. And yes, I think there are some aspects of it I agree with, some I disagree, but I see why they exist and why people feel that way. You seem to want to attribute to me all the views expressed there whether or not I was talking about in context of research done or my own views.

I don't see it as select feminism necessarily. Some of the views, I find contrary to my own; some I do not. And I don't really care if it angers you, to be frank. I can give you a real life example: 2 women with 5 years of experience at a law firm. One took 3 years off (non-consecutive) to have 3 kids. The other, in those three years, passed the patent bar (so she could litigate patent infringement) and went to school part time to get her LLM while working 80 hours per week. When it comes time to deciding on partnership track, I have no problem with her being given an advantage. The other woman can't litigate patents under the law set up here, and has no LLM. They are no longer equally qualified as employees. That can make you angry all you want, but I don't see how you can make the argument that all things being equal, these two women have identical qualifications. They simply do not, nor do they have the same amount of experience in their field.

And by the way, I don't want to work 90 hours a week and go to school part time for extra degrees to go ahead. But if my coworker did, I'd have no issue whatsoever in recognizing she is more qualified than I am.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 09:07 PM   #11
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:38 PM
The view you expressed which I disagreed with was one you wrote of your own opinion - not on the study, or the comment you related which your coworker made. The fact that it doesn't bother you when these views both people is not for me to deal with. If you wish to not be bothered by what these views do, then that's your choice.

Your example is flawed. Women with different levels of qualifications are not what I argue on behalf of. If they'd had the same qualifications, but lacked 3 years of experience, that's simply in writing. I'd expect they both be considered and the one who deserves the promotion be given it. If that is the mother, then congratulations to her. If it is the one with no children, then she earned it just as validly. Really, this whole argument of taking time off for children is moot. In some situations it is going to make a big difference, and that is a sacrifice mothers will make. For it to automatically disadvantage someone is bullshit. I dont care how anyone paints it. It is bullshit. And it is select feminism. All employees need to be assessed on their work performance, nothing else. If children have impeded it, then they're set back. If they haven't, then why penalise them?

Women dont want hand-outs. They just want equal opportunity.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 09:27 PM   #12
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 07:38 AM
After resuming my "career" with Irish twins at home, I've decided the marriage laws really do need some adjustment.

I really need a housewife.
__________________
AliEnvy is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 10:04 PM   #13
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:38 PM

a housewife or valium!

or perhaps 5 numbers and the powerball.
*cough*



dont mind me, people. i'm testing something.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 10:13 PM   #14
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 07:38 AM
Pass the valium, the powerball is my retirement plan...

I want it ALL, baby!

__________________
AliEnvy is offline  
Old 09-28-2006, 10:31 PM   #15
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,271
Local Time: 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


Women dont want hand-outs. They just want equal opportunity.
Thanks for the patronizing comment.

Given that I've had 2 careers and both in the most male-dominated, competitive fields you could imagine, I never really thought about equal opportunity before. Never came up!
__________________

__________________
anitram is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com