Are men feminists?

[pgv]

I wasn't really sure where to post this, but it's something I've been wondering about for a while now.
Do men consider themselves feminists? And if not - why not? Is it simply because they are not women, or because they don't believe women should have equal rights as men? I don't know too much about feminism but as a teenage girl growing up in the 21st centuary I feel like I should do.
(I'm also doing an essay on this in english at the moment, and am trying to expand my knowledge on the subject!)

 

[Liesje]

I think there was a thread on this recently...?

I think that men can be feminists, and I think that women don't have to be feminists.

It all depends on how you define feminism. I took a course only on feminism and I still couldn't give a clear definition. If I can remember our reading material, I could give you some sources for your paper...

 

[yolland]

You might want to check out this thread we had on that topic a few weeks back.

 

[Angela Harlem]

double post.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Feminisms' lack of definition is its major downfall. You've got individual men who will stand up for it and demand that women have equal rights, but you have a silent many who just dont care enough and allow the inequality to continue. You've then got the women who claim to be loyal to the feminist cause, but are anything but. They're the ones who really get on my tits. We had another thread in here, different to the one yolland linked to (I think), in which the topic of women in the child bearing age and workplace opportunities came up. That in particular, made me seeth. The general view among childless career minded women, that they were disadvantaged by the threat of mothers being given their opportunities, was unbelievably destructive, angering, and archaic. Is THIS what feminism is getting us? Indifferent male masses, and corporate/career slave bitche types fighting to keep the inequality?

Makes me bloody mad.

How many damn children you have is as irrelevent as your gender. Or sexuality. Or age. Or race. Or pet snakes' name.

In other words, men and women are as bad at true feminism as each other. There was a point in all that, lol.

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem You've then got the women who claim to be loyal to the feminist cause, but are anything but. They're the ones who really get on my tits.

And then:

corporate/career slave bitche types

Is actually rather hilarious, back to back.

 

[Angela Harlem]

why? they are bitch types if they insist that women with children are denied the same opportunities. and they are an insult to feminism.

that little piece of irony is wonderful.

 

[anitram]

why? they are bitch types if they insist that women with children are denied the same opportunities.

I honestly don't understand what that means.

But women in the corporate world have spent decades trying to get beyond the "corporate bitch" label, which, by the way, never gets thrown around at men who hold similar attitudes or characteristics, so to have other women still resorting to calling them that repulses me a bit. Just my .02.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Well, that's a bit unfortunate, isn't it. I know you're determined to pick fault with how I am presenting this point, but think of the women who have been fighting alongside you for decades to be afforded the same rights, hear women complain when they want their cake and to eat it too. Some women want children and a career. To have women who want only the career begrudge working mothers for fighting for the same opportunities and possibilities because they can take up to a year (or more) off to have children, is infuriating. How is that feminism? It's select feminism. It's saying "yeah, I agree with feminism as long as women agree to live and work as a man, with no kids (or have a wife to raise them if you're the bloke)". It's not putting women up on a level playing field at all. A comment you actually made in that other thread, got me so angry that I couldn't even reply at the time, so I guess we've both pissed each other off in this regard - which is unproductive to both ourselves/each other and the discussion. I simply question how you expect feminism to move forward and function with views like this. You personally can make whichever choices you like, and feminism (I'd certainly hope) fights to allow you to pursue a career on equal footing. Likewise, I'd hope it allows others to pursue both if they so choose. It is not at the detriment to the other. It shouldn't be, if we all fight for this with the same common goal.

 

[anitram]

Fair enough.

I was talking about a study that was actually conducted in Toronto and commenting on it and the attitudes I've encountered from women my age which seem to (some extent) support that study. Whether or not you find fault with that, fine, but I didn't frame that argument around what I think or how I feel, I framed it in terms of discussion of what is going on in the corporate world. And yes, I think there are some aspects of it I agree with, some I disagree, but I see why they exist and why people feel that way. You seem to want to attribute to me all the views expressed there whether or not I was talking about in context of research done or my own views.

I don't see it as select feminism necessarily. Some of the views, I find contrary to my own; some I do not. And I don't really care if it angers you, to be frank. I can give you a real life example: 2 women with 5 years of experience at a law firm. One took 3 years off (non-consecutive) to have 3 kids. The other, in those three years, passed the patent bar (so she could litigate patent infringement) and went to school part time to get her LLM while working 80 hours per week. When it comes time to deciding on partnership track, I have no problem with her being given an advantage. The other woman can't litigate patents under the law set up here, and has no LLM. They are no longer equally qualified as employees. That can make you angry all you want, but I don't see how you can make the argument that all things being equal, these two women have identical qualifications. They simply do not, nor do they have the same amount of experience in their field.

And by the way, I don't want to work 90 hours a week and go to school part time for extra degrees to go ahead. But if my coworker did, I'd have no issue whatsoever in recognizing she is more qualified than I am.

 

[Angela Harlem]

The view you expressed which I disagreed with was one you wrote of your own opinion - not on the study, or the comment you related which your coworker made. The fact that it doesn't bother you when these views both people is not for me to deal with. If you wish to not be bothered by what these views do, then that's your choice.

Your example is flawed. Women with different levels of qualifications are not what I argue on behalf of. If they'd had the same qualifications, but lacked 3 years of experience, that's simply in writing. I'd expect they both be considered and the one who deserves the promotion be given it. If that is the mother, then congratulations to her. If it is the one with no children, then she earned it just as validly. Really, this whole argument of taking time off for children is moot. In some situations it is going to make a big difference, and that is a sacrifice mothers will make. For it to automatically disadvantage someone is bullshit. I dont care how anyone paints it. It is bullshit. And it is select feminism. All employees need to be assessed on their work performance, nothing else. If children have impeded it, then they're set back. If they haven't, then why penalise them?

Women dont want hand-outs. They just want equal opportunity.

 

[AliEnvy]

After resuming my "career" with Irish twins at home, I've decided the marriage laws really do need some adjustment.

I really need a housewife.

 

[Angela Harlem]

a housewife or valium!

or perhaps 5 numbers and the powerball.
*cough*



dont mind me, people. i'm testing something.

 

[AliEnvy]

Pass the valium, the powerball is my retirement plan...

I want it ALL, baby!

 

[anitram]

Women dont want hand-outs. They just want equal opportunity.

Thanks for the patronizing comment.

Given that I've had 2 careers and both in the most male-dominated, competitive fields you could imagine, I never really thought about equal opportunity before. Never came up!

 

[angelordevil]

...I feel a thread merge coming on Either that, or a powerball/valium spin-off thread.

I think that men can be feminists

Yes they can!

I once took a 'Women and Development' course at university...I was the lone guy in a class of 20. I guess at first it looked rather funny, and perhaps my motivation for taking the course was even questioned. However, I soon blended in, and I even ended up designing the t-shirts for a special project the class put together.

In parts of Africa, and around the world, it's the women who carry the load of family responsibilities on their shoulders. Why? Because the men simply aren't expected to. It's been this way for centuries. There's a lesson in that. Men should be feminists; they should be more aware of a woman's perspective, because such awareness ultimately sheds light on their own existence, as well as on any offspring that they helped bring into the world.

 

[Tania]

I, too, find your comments somewhat perturbing, Anitram. You appear to be a very intelligent young woman and maybe it is your youth speaking, but to write off a percentage of the population given that they have made a choice to have children is archaic in the least.

Speaking from experience, I have found that those who take this viewpoint are often described, not only by other women but also by men, in the terms Angela Harlem has used.

I think, like in most other instances, be it war or even standing in line at the supermarket, a bit of COMPASSION and looking at a situation from another's viewpoint, makes life a lot better both individuals.

It is important to remember, that while one has a certain perspective of the world whilst childless, this can drastically change when or if the situation changes. Those people that are ignored/trampled upon/dismissed for their choices might just be the very people needed in these times.

I say this from experience. I have three children, I have all the qualifications and in my field there are only a few people who do my job. I can honestly say, I have never been denied any promotion or project opportunity because of my children. I am lucky enough to work from home. I actually find it refreshing that most of the males who I work with (99% at least) are more than happy to accommodate my family life and needs. Their argument is that if they can work around my family then they get a greater productive input from me.

I think that these times are much more enlightened and that maybe the word feminism is a little defunct.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Thanks for the patronizing comment.

Given that I've had 2 careers and both in the most male-dominated, competitive fields you could imagine, I never really thought about equal opportunity before. Never came up!

Good lord! It wasn't patronising. It was written after you gave that moot example of 2 women with different credentials being assessed differently as if my point all along has been 'to hell with experience and qualifications, just hand women whatever they want!' which is plainly not the case.

I'm quite sure you've faced discrimination, in your working life. Even the 3 weeks at uni has probably given you an idea of how rife it is in the legal professionn as well as research. I hope one day you can extend this understanding to working mothers. And that is not patronising, it's just the way it is.

 

[BVS]

If fighting for women's equal rights makes you a feminist, then I am a feminist. In the US women may have equal rights on paper for the most part, but in reality there is still a huge gap... And I will voice that until the gap is closed.

 

[INDY500]

in reality there is still a huge gap... And I will voice that until the gap is closed.

 

[BVS]

I have the t-shirt...

But just for you, for I wouldn't want to let you down

 

[INDY500]

But just for you, for I wouldn't want to let you down

 

[pgv]

I say this from experience. I have three children, I have all the qualifications and in my field there are only a few people who do my job. I can honestly say, I have never been denied any promotion or project opportunity because of my children. I am lucky enough to work from home. I actually find it refreshing that most of the males who I work with (99% at least) are more than happy to accommodate my family life and needs. Their argument is that if they can work around my family then they get a greater productive input from me.

You have been rather lucky in your job and the people you work with. My mother was training to be a doctor, but as soon as she became pregnant with me (her first/only child) lots of doors closed - will she be expecting maternity leave? will she be wanting time off for the school holidays etc? My father who was in the same situation wasn't asked any of these questions, yet he was having a child too.
I honestly don't understand that, I know the mother is going through the birth/pregnancy, but surely its a joint experience and neither parent wants to miss out on? Or even, an experience neither parent will let interfere with their work?
Or is it still expected that women should stay at home with the child whilst men pursue a career?


Sorry that I started this thread, I didn't realise there was already one on the same topic

 

[the soul waits]

Feminisms' lack of definition is its major downfall. You've got individual men who will stand up for it and demand that women have equal rights, but you have a silent many who just dont care enough and allow the inequality to continue. You've then got the women who claim to be loyal to the feminist cause, but are anything but. They're the ones who really get on my tits. We had another thread in here, different to the one yolland linked to (I think), in which the topic of women in the child bearing age and workplace opportunities came up. That in particular, made me seeth. The general view among childless career minded women, that they were disadvantaged by the threat of mothers being given their opportunities, was unbelievably destructive, angering, and archaic. Is THIS what feminism is getting us? Indifferent male masses, and corporate/career slave bitche types fighting to keep the inequality?

Makes me bloody mad.

How many damn children you have is as irrelevent as your gender. Or sexuality. Or age. Or race. Or pet snakes' name.

In other words, men and women are as bad at true feminism as each other. There was a point in all that, lol.

Anna

Perfectly worded.

 

[A_Wanderer]

So the ability to give life is now considered an advantage, who knew?

The sexes are different and not equal but not one is superior.

 

[TranceEnding]

my sis says that women are often the worst misogynists

i like men who are in touch with their feminine side ... I think alot of (male) musicians (and creative types in general) generally are and that's why (some/most?!) women love them.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I never quite understand what thats supposed to mean, in touch with emotions; it always seems like a SNAG is just the bloke who can flaunt it to hook up.

Maybe it is more a question of openness, but therein lies futility, thinking through love only leads to long and lonely nights.

Back to topic though isn't there a danger especially in shaping the education system to push to far one way to correct a problem until boys are put at a disadvantage? Of course the flip is that in this can result from the absense of good male teachers and the reasons that men don't become teachers which goes to what jobs society deems worthwhile so it can get a bit circular.

 

[AliEnvy]

I never quite understand what thats supposed to mean,

It means they are generally more romantic in a true sense - not just the generic flowers and candlelight that gets them laid in the beginning.

 

[redhotswami]

Back to topic though isn't there a danger especially in shaping the education system to push to far one way to correct a problem until boys are put at a disadvantage?

I think I missed the post you are responding to...but are you referring to single sex education?

Actually the danger right now is the current education system. It has been proven many times over that women & men do better in single sex classes. AND, research has also shown that the sooner the sexes are separated (like, in first level education), the better, due to the nature of the interactions between them.

Now, reforming the system to promote SSEd might result in again a separate but equal problem...

Anyway, sadly it appears as though women's colleges may diminish. Many are at least considering going co-ed...and Randolph Macon Woman's College, one that definitely stood out, has ultimately decided to do so.

Oh and by the way, the english dictionary actually defines feminism as supporting equal rights (not just promotion of women), and is not limited to sex, but also includes race and others...I wasn't expecting that definition!

 

[Irvine511]

i was in a gender equity club in high school.

just sayin'.