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Old 06-19-2002, 09:13 PM   #46
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I apologize for the comment, noting that it was among the most harsh things I've said here in quite a while.

That said...

Quote:
Originally posted by OzAurora
This quote really made me quite angry- you dont know me Bubba, you dont know what kind of person I am, what I do and what my personal morals are and to make a statement like that, well to me that just proves how insensitive you really are.
Insensitive I may be, but I really don't know what your personal morals are? I QUOTE:

I have absolutely no problem with using pirated software and do not think of it as being a form of 'stealing', if you were to steal from the poor, ok then this is stealing but to use software that is so easily pirated from a company who are worth millions, more fool them I think.....

In other words, you believe that stealing is morally permissible, as long as you steal from the rich.

More fool them, right?

I QUOTE AGAIN:

in my opinion this is all the same to some degree and like I said initially I would have no problem in paying for un-pirated software if it were cheaper, but hell no am I going to pay 500 bucks for office and add to Gates' empire when I can get a copy for free and sorry but I do see a difference in the notion of breaking into ones house and stealing all of their personal belongings compared to using pirated software, these are two very different forms of 'stealing' in my opinion and again just my two cents

You seem to believe that stealing is morally permissible as long as you think the item stolen is overpriced - and again, you think it's just fine to steal from the rich (e.g., Gates' empire - despite the fact that Adobe is not even owned by Bill Gates).

So I do know SOMETHING about your morality: you think it's fine to steal expensive things from those who can afford it.


Quote:
I am in the music industry- I write and perform songs and play in a band here on the Sunshine Coast, but I really dont have to and am not going to spend the time justifying myself or my actions to someone as naieve as you.
I apologize for assuming you didn't work in the music industry. I wonder, then, how you would react to someone stealing the music you write - in the form of sheet music or recordings.

If you have no problem with it, great. There are those in the creative world (writers, musicians, and even the ogres in software development) who would like to hold on to their intellectual property rights and use those rights to make a living; please don't get in our way.

And if you DO object to people doing to you what you do to others, I would like to mention that hypocrisy doesn't make theft any less immoral.

Quote:
I can accept that you have different opinions to me, we obviously live in very, very different worlds but I would not criticise you personally for your opinions and make assumptions on your character, without even knowing you- why dont you learn to think before you say something
You wouldn't criticize me personally? So, what exactly is calling me insensitive and niave? and how are those comments any better than mine?

...and above all that, do you not have ANY response to the actual arguments I've presented?

Bubba
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Old 06-19-2002, 10:04 PM   #47
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I dont know why I am going to do this- ususally I would not waste my time- but you are lucky Bubba as I am having a rather slow day at work and have a lot of time to waste, so ok, here goes,

In reply to this quote:

Quote:
I apologize for assuming you didn't work in the music industry. I wonder, then, how you would react to someone stealing the music you write - in the form of sheet music or recordings.
I would have no problems with someone else singing or using any of my songs, I really do see music (well my music) as something to be shared and admired and part of the way to do this is by using my music- bringing it to a wider audience and appreciating it as I am sure that there are people who can perform my songs heaps better than me and I would be very flattered by this.




Quote:
You seem to believe that stealing is morally permissible as long as you think the item stolen is overpriced - and again, you think it's just fine to steal from the rich (e.g., Gates' empire - despite the fact that Adobe is not even owned by Bill Gates).
In reply to this I do not think that stealing is morally permissable if it is overpriced as I do not see that the 'burnt' software I have as stolen- this notion does not even enter into my head if anybody is wrong it is the companies who can condone such exuberant prices for such software from those who are poor such as I was at the time when I was a student- I was lucky enugh to have my two and a half thousand dollar computer bought for me by my Grandparents, however when one is a student you really do not have any spare money- I have lived out of home since I was 18- therefore always having to pay rent, phone and electricity bills, having to pay for the running of a car, becasue where I live the idea of public transport does not exist and the university was a long way away and then by the time you buy a little bit of food and pay for your expenses at univeristy one would be lucky if they had a spare twenty dollars left over out of there $300 a fortnight they got from the government as a student- so no I dont feel bad that I have a pirated version of Photoshop on my computer which came in handy for me when I was doing graphic design at university- I would love to own a legit copy of the software, but if I was to have waited and saved all of my spare money to do so, well I would still be saving for that piece of software and I hear you say, 'well why didnt you get a part time job'- well if you knew the Sunshine Coast you would realise that everyone wants to live here and as such jobs are so hard to come by and then try and get a job that will work around your uni hours- practically impossible! as the boss can get someone else who is not working or studying and therefore extremely flexible..........so to put all of that into light I do not see what I did was stealing- I know morally that if I could of afforded the proper version I would of got it, however my circumstances did not allow for that and I know that I would not go and break into ones house and steal their belongings, just becase I think that they are rich- this really is being stupid and I am not one who is into doing this all the time- I really am not that interested in computers however at the time I was into graphics and my copy of photoshop enabled me to be able to do my work from home instead of having to fight over a computer at uni.


Quote:
If you have no problem with it, great. There are those in the creative world (writers, musicians, and even the ogres in software development) who would like to hold on to their intellectual property rights and use those rights to make a living; please don't get in our way.
I am not going to stand in your way- that would require to much energy and quite frankly I have better things to do with my time and I think that there will always be companies like who is it, the RIAA who will always champion such causes and fight for what they think is subjectively just!

now I am tired of replying, had enough- see ya!
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Old 06-19-2002, 10:43 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by OzAurora


I am not going to stand in your way- that would require to much energy and quite frankly I have better things to do with my time
'Better Things to Do'.. Hahaha.. This is Funny... It's just like this huuuge scream synonymous for 'Let me Get the F#ck Out Of Here'....

Mug like's to tack on 'with your dignity'... But I like it simple and leaving a bit up for the people to figure out... for some reason I am thinking he's tearing up at your posts though Oz...

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Old 06-19-2002, 11:00 PM   #49
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Bubba, it scares the absolute SHIT out of me when we agree.
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Old 06-19-2002, 11:30 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite


for some reason I am thinking he's tearing up at your posts though Oz...

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hmmmm- go for it I dont care, really, I dont
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Old 06-20-2002, 12:08 AM   #51
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HAHAHAHA...morals!
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Old 06-20-2002, 02:47 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by OzAurora
In reply to this I do not think that stealing is morally permissable if it is overpriced as I do not see that the 'burnt' software I have as stolen- this notion does not even enter into my head if anybody is wrong it is the companies who can condone such exuberant prices for such software from those who are poor such as I was at the time when I was a student
Who decides when something is overpriced? And why did you not look for alternatives instead of stealing (copying) the software? Why did you not look for/buy the program from a competitor?
You argue that stealing is OK when the product is overpriced, so it is OK to steal a Ferrari or a Rolex watch?

Earlier on I mentioned some free (ie. not costing anything) software programs, among which a perfect alternative to MS Office, so stealing when you consider something overpriced has become even less of an argument.

C ya!
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Old 06-20-2002, 09:39 AM   #53
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I would never buy pirated software, but if I can get some copies (from family or friends) , it's okay. What do you think I'm using right now!
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Old 06-20-2002, 05:00 PM   #54
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Ah yes, the inevitable backlash from our uber-capitalists.

What you don't realize is that the much of the entire evolution of PCs is from that seedy underground of hackers. Many of the C.E.O.'s of multi-billion dollar computer corporations spent their days in the late 1970s and early 1980s picking apart Altair systems and updating technology. Computer monitors? Created not by a legit company, but by one of these early hackers. P2P sharing clients? Not created by legit companies, but by hackers. Do we see a trend here?

Companies are not interested in accessibility nor evolution of technology, but money; the various similarly flawed flavors of Microsoft Windows of the last decade is enough evidence of that. Quite honestly, the hackers of today will be the innovators of tomorrow--who will, like their predecessors, grow fat and rich and oppressive. In turn, though, with their wealth, they will purchase legitimate software.

Pirated software, in too many respects, is "free advertising." Those 18 year old college kids of today downloading free software will grow up hopefully as professional in whatever field they're training for, whether it is digital media arts or programming. Once grown up, the brand loyalty will remain, and, especially when dealing with a company, the software will be purchased and upgraded.

Quite honestly, most hacked software does NOT hurt the software industry, if only because most users cannot remotely afford legitimate copies. Hence, even if all pirated software was stopped and destroyed, these people would not be rushing to the store to buy real copies, because that involves money they do not have. Hence, you are talking about users that do not affect the economy of software anyway.

Thoughts?

Melon
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Old 06-20-2002, 07:44 PM   #55
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Fuck, i couldnt say it better melon. I totally agree with what ur proposeing!!! Great Post!!!
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Old 06-20-2002, 09:11 PM   #56
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From April 11, 2002 (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Fine.

If/when I return to regular posting, I WILL avoid Melon, and I hope he does the same. If another fight breaks out, I would like three things to be noted:

1) Who started it this time - and it wasn't me.

2) Who will have started it next time; that is, which one of us ultimately breaks the agreement to avoid each other, because I can pretty much guarantee it's NOT going to be me.

3) Who has actually apologized for his behavior and who would rather just claim to be "bigger than this."

My behavior WAS uncalled for. I again sincerely apologize, but my greivances were real. Melon DID attack me after I went on vacation, and DID go to a lengthy attack while simultaneously asserting to be too busy to explain why the "Nazi" shoe fits conservatives like me.

He has long since stooped to this level. He could at least acknowledge the fact, if not apologize for it. But I have long since learned that that simply won't happen. However, if Melon just stops doing what he did in that other thread and stays away from me upon my return, I will be deliriously happy.

I WILL leave Melon alone if he will simply do the same for me.
Quote:
Originally posted by SicilianGoddess
Alright then.

Melon?
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Wish granted.

Melon
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Old 06-20-2002, 09:52 PM   #57
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ummm, Bubba, hate to break it to ya, but it sure didn't look like melon was engaging in direct fighting with you...merely participating in the larger discussion.
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Old 06-20-2002, 09:59 PM   #58
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it was great reading your posts melon. you add a lot to discussions. but you can no longer post! sorry!

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Old 06-20-2002, 10:12 PM   #59
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I grant that melon may not have been trying to pick a fight with that comment, yet the facts remain:


A) He is, I believe, referring to me. He may have been referring to a group of people with his "uber-capitalist" remark (martha and Lemonite in particular), but I believe it's naive that I did not number among this group.

If I'm wrong, fine. My last post becomes a simple reminder of what has already been promised.

B) Just over two months ago, I asked melon to leave me alone.

C) He agreed.


I have no problem whatsoever with Melon and I posting in the same thread, provided we both ignore what the other posts.

I have promised to ignore melon; he promised to follow suit; I expect these promises will be kept.

If everyone is willing to continue the discussion about software privacy, let's do so.

Bubba
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Old 06-21-2002, 11:12 AM   #60
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ugh.

back to the discussion.....


Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Companies are not interested in accessibility nor evolution of technology, but money; the various similarly flawed flavors of Microsoft Windows of the last decade is enough evidence of that. Quite honestly, the hackers of today will be the innovators of tomorrow--who will, like their predecessors, grow fat and rich and oppressive. In turn, though, with their wealth, they will purchase legitimate software.

Pirated software, in too many respects, is "free advertising." Those 18 year old college kids of today downloading free software will grow up hopefully as professional in whatever field they're training for, whether it is digital media arts or programming. Once grown up, the brand loyalty will remain, and, especially when dealing with a company, the software will be purchased and upgraded.
melon, I agree 100% with all these statements. But, for me, it still doesn't justify stealing software. Software companies are idiots for not showing more interest in evolution of technology and innovation, and pricing their software out of the range of young, innovative, talented users (potential hackers), but I say that's their problem. The answer is not to steal from them, any more than it would have been for me to steal a few million dollars from Gary Coleman in 1988 since he was gonna squander it all anyway.

Quote:
Quite honestly, most hacked software does NOT hurt the software industry, if only because most users cannot remotely afford legitimate copies....Hence, you are talking about users that do not affect the economy of software anyway.
I disagree. I think there are many more people copying software instead of buying it than you think. Of course that's just my guess. True, it probably doesn't have a huge impact on Microsoft's bottom-line, but I think it does cost software companies sales. Either way, for me personally, I try to ask myself, "what if everybody did what I'm doing?" In this case, a lot of people would lose a ton of money. So I don't do it, and I ask others not to.

aside: melon, can you give me the scoop on that frightening picture in your sig and the identity of your avatar? muchas gracias.
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