Any Libertarians Here?

[the iron horse]

I hope so.

I'm not trans-fat free and I'm thinking a worldwide Twinkie band might be next.


*just trying to find some reason in a flood of nonsense*


What do you think?

 

[BVS]

I'm not trans-fat free and I'm thinking a worldwide Twinkie band might be next.


*just trying to find some reason in a flood of nonsense*

You could just continue your other thread rather than keep opening new ones.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I believe people should have a right to put what they want into their bodies; although I also think that there are a good many benefits to being healthy.

 

[INDY500]

Freedom tethered to individual responsibility and civility.

"Civilization begins with order, grows with liberty, and dies with chaos." -- Will Durant

 

[Angela Harlem]

i tender my right to not pay for your cholesterol clogged arteries when you are in hospital from a stroke or heart condition. pay for it your fucking selves.


.....oh wait on, you're american; you already do!

 

[DrTeeth]

What do you think?

I think it would be nice sometimes to be able to try and live a healthy life without being jumped on by Libertarians. You seem to be little more than a different side of the same coin when compared to the so-called baby boom ban generation.

 

[verte76]

No, but I used to date one. It was cool. We'd have all sorts of really good debates.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Is there a distinction between libertarian and hedonist?

 

[financeguy]

Is there a distinction between libertarian and hedonist?

I'm starting to wonder. Hopefully there is more to libertarian philosophy than transfats and unfiltered Camels.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Well sure there is, financeguy. There's also 'taxation is theft' for starters.

 

[the iron horse]

Frank Sinatra died at what age?

80? or something?

smoked unfiltered Camels


We are going to die, but Im just saying it would be nice if we could live in freedom and liberty.

 

[BVS]

Frank Sinatra died at what age?

80? or something?

smoked unfiltered Camels


We are going to die, but Im just saying it would be nice if we could live in freedom and liberty.

You're right, some beat the odds. And yes we are all going to die.

And I want to live free from paying for other people's habits. That's what I call freedom.

 

[anitram]

We are going to die, but Im just saying it would be nice if we could live in freedom and liberty.

Smoke 8 packs a day in your own home for all I care.

Smoke it anywhere where I can smell it, and your liberty ends where it starts infringing on mine.

 

[Kieran McConville]

You're right, some beat the odds. And yes we are all going to die.

And I want to live free from paying for other people's habits. That's what I call freedom.

In all fairness, I have trouble with this line of thinking, as the reality is we all as citizens pay for a lot of things we may not agree with. The list is nearly endless. The potential for others to get their noses into anyone's life and habits are also nearly endless, when this line of thinking takes precedence.

That's my take on it, anyhow. I'm not a capital L libertarian by any stretch.

 

[A_Wanderer]

You're right, some beat the odds. And yes we are all going to die.

And I want to live free from paying for other people's habits. That's what I call freedom.

Not if that means using force to stop people from doing the stupid things to themselves.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Smoke 8 packs a day in your own home for all I care.

Smoke it anywhere where I can smell it, and your liberty ends where it starts infringing on mine.

Not if it's in a privately owned venue where the owner allows smoking.

 

[BVS]

In all fairness, I have trouble with this line of thinking, as the reality is we all as citizens pay for a lot of things we may not agree with. The list is nearly endless. The potential for others to get their noses into anyone's life and habits are also nearly endless, when this line of thinking takes precedence.

That's my take on it, anyhow. I'm not a capital L libertarian by any stretch.

Well then let's legalize drunk driving!!!

 

[BVS]

Not if that means using force to stop people from doing the stupid things to themselves.

Who said anyone is using force? No one said they have to stop, I just want to be able to go out in public and not have my infant put in danger by their habits, I don't want to pay higher insurance due to their ignorance.

 

[A_Wanderer]

And you do that with bans, and where do you draw the line for these bans? In the street, in all public buildings? in pubs, clubs and restaurants? How is the ban held up; what threat will force people to modify their behaviour?

 

[BVS]

And you do that with bans, and where do you draw the line for these bans? In the street, in all public buildings? in pubs, clubs and restaurants? How is the ban held up; what threat will force people to modify their behaviour?

I don't care about modifying someones behaviour. And I'm not a fan of full on bans. But people should have a choice to go somewhere in public where they aren't poisoned.

 

[anitram]

Not if it's in a privately owned venue where the owner allows smoking.

The law has moved to ban smoking even in some of those venues. Here, no smoking in bars, pubs, clubs, restaurants, sports arenas, etc.

The way it should be. Second hand smoke is a health issue. Your freedom ends where public peril begins.

 

[CTU2fan]

I'd prefer public nudity to public smoking...at least nudity doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Nudity doesn't hurt anyone?

Think of all the car driver that don't watch the traffic anymore and crash into another car or something

 

[Kieran McConville]

Well then let's legalize drunk driving!!!

I don't think I suggested anything even remotely like that.

For the record I support general non-smoking rules in public venues. If nothing else it's common courtesy. I don't argue that smoking is harmful. Even if those bans did not exist by law (as they do here), I'd always think people would be best to take it outside.

But the 'why should I pay for others' illnesses' thinking is what leads to total ban of all 'bad things' everywhere and anywhere (including your own home).

 

[Harry Vest]

Smoking in bars should be up to the owner of the establishment and nobody else. Period. There isn't even a good argument in this nonsense. If you're scared of second hand smoke then all you gotta do is not walk through the doors - go down the street to the non-smoking bar. If what all the PCF (Politically Correct Facists) say is true then the non-smoking bar will have way more people attending anyways - thus a more happening bar!!!

 

[BVS]

But the 'why should I pay for others' illnesses' thinking is what leads to total ban of all 'bad things' everywhere and anywhere (including your own home).

But what I'm seeing in this thread is really nothing about being a libertarian, it just comes off as people who don't want to take any responsibility for their actions.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Yes, well. Maybe that is part of the modern libertarian mindset. (a la Denis Leary's 'Asshole').

As I said earlier, I'm not claiming to be a libertarian. I guess I just as a general ethos turn that old 'it become's people's business when it hurts others' on its head and so instead I say, it becomes nobody's business when I'm minding my own business. They both mean the same thing, just the onus is different.

I'm not really addressing anything you said now, I guess, just thinking out loud.

 

[BVS]

Yes, well. Maybe that is part of the modern libertarian mindset. (a la Denis Leary's 'Asshole').

As I said earlier, I'm not claiming to be a libertarian. I guess I just as a general ethos turn that old 'it become's people's business when it hurts others' on its head and so instead I say, it becomes nobody's business when I'm minding my own business. They both mean the same thing, just the onus is different.

I'm not really addressing anything you said now, I guess, just thinking out loud.

Oh, believe me I know what you are saying. I by no means am a big supporter of full on bans, but I do believe in responsibility.

I guess I just as a general ethos turn that old 'it become's people's business when it hurts others' on its head and so instead I say, it becomes nobody's business when I'm minding my own business. They both mean the same thing, just the onus is different.

But do they mean the same thing? Are you really just minding your own business when you are raising people's premiums, puting other people's health or life in risk?

 

[Angela Harlem]

I dunno if anyone took my comment seriously (if they even noticed it), or if the thread would have gone this usual route anyway, but this paying for others illnesses is a slippery slope I think we can best avoid with sheer common sense. Common sense means voluntarily avoiding trans fats and all the others. It's the same principle which sees us welcome speed limits, seat belt laws, bike helmets and the responsible service of alcohol laws and so on. When it comes down to it, I dont actually care if my tax dollars (or in the case of the US with insurance premiums) pay for someone's triple bypass operation. My tax dollars mysteriously disappear regularly, and in time we see roads being cared for, and computers bought for the angelic little darlings in schools. We see hospital beds and operations paid for. I'm good with that. It's cool.

...I do question the idiocy of anyone who chooses to ignore sense and live needlessly recklessly. Live safe, live well, live long.

 

[Kieran McConville]

But do they mean the same thing? Are you really just minding your own business when you are raising people's premiums, puting other people's health or life in risk?

I believe they do, yes. Broadly. Because if I am 'minding my own business', at the very least surely I'm NOT putting other people's life and health at risk!

Sitting in my own home enjoying a smoke?

Raising health premiums... maybe. But on that logic - and this is the problem I had from the start - we should be micromanaged in every aspect of our personal enjoyment.

I am not against personal responsibility, but there are such things as taking it to extremes. Principles can be taken too far. Connections can be drawn too far.

And isn't it all a bit selective? Motor vehicle exhaust, now... that's not going away anytime soon. But motorists aren't attacked because almost everybody is one, at some stage. And yes, because often there is little choice.

And maybe this is the little bit of (small l) libertarian in me... the kind of people who seek out political power often do take it too far, quite intentionally, because more control begets more power, all for our own good of course.