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Old 01-09-2007, 08:10 PM   #76
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it could even be argued that if an employer continues to work in that environment knowing the risks that they have consented since they could in theory just quit.
It could be argued that. It could even be argued that employers have no obligation at all to ensure the safety of their workers; that dead and injured workers are just a by-product of successful industry. Fortunately, civilized societies don't buy into that bullshit and they have made laws to make sure that workers have some degree of safety on the job. One more strike agaisnt libertarian "principles."
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:14 PM   #77
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Genocide and slavery are the most severe violations of another human beings liberty; gay marriage is an excercise in liberty by entering into a contract with a partner and abortion is debatable from a variety of different perspectives including that of reproductive rights; fundamentally control over ones body - the same basic argument as drug decriminalisation.

We cannot rely on revealed truth and morality for the legal framework of society - that leads to abuse and harm - it should be dervied from logical axioms and the balance between liberty and security that a functional society needs.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:17 PM   #78
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An in principle defence of the right for a person to run their business in a bigoted and exclusionary manner on the basis of property
This is my fodder against libertarianism: the fucked up priorities. The belief that the principle of discrimination and "property rights" is more important the the principle of equal access and opportunity. You can talk all you want to about your "ethical protests." It rings false when you really do believe that the person you're protesting against has the absolute right to do whatever it was that he did.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:21 PM   #79
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It could be argued that. It could even be argued that employers have no obligation at all to ensure the safety of their workers; that dead and injured workers are just a by-product of successful industry. Fortunately, civilized societies don't buy into that bullshit and they have made laws to make sure that workers have some degree of safety on the job. One more strike agaisnt libertarian "principles."
You want libertarian principles go out and read F.A. Hayeks road to serfdom, Milton Friedman's Free to Choose and Ayn Rands Atlas Shrugged.

There is a role for the government in protecting people; libertarian minarchism is not anarchism - and workplace safety as I said could be considered a legitimate place for reuglation. The most hardline argument is not accepted by all libertarians and you are wrong in suggesting that it constitutes a strike against a fundamental libertarian principle.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:22 PM   #80
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To be honest with you, I think libertarianism (and I am talking about extreme forms of it) is incompatible with the rule of law and that's why it's never going to get anywhere.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:24 PM   #81
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You want libertarian principles go out and read F.A. Hayeks road to serfdom, Milton Friedman's Free to Choose and Ayn Rands Atlas Shrugged.

I've read the last 2. I don't think much of Ayn Rand (her work smacks entirely too much of a masturbatory exercise to be worth a lot academically) and Milton Friedman I flat out disagree with.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:30 PM   #82
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This is my fodder against libertarianism: the fucked up priorities. The belief that the principle of discrimination and "property rights" is more important the the principle of equal access and opportunity. You can talk all you want to about your "ethical protests." It rings false when you really do believe that the person you're protesting against has the absolute right to do whatever it was that he did.
So unless I actively support government force against bigots I implicitly support bigotry?

By that logic the ACLU supports the KKK and neo-Nazis. By the logic that equality and tolerance is to be legislated we end up with much more than laws preventing shopowners from hiring and firing as they please; we get situations where clubs are shut down for their intollerance (for instance Christian groups that discriminate against LGBT individuals at public universities) all the way to hate speech laws; which slice the margins of free speech to only be what is politically acceptable.

It is better to be defending monsters for the right reasons than to be punishing them in a wrong way.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:33 PM   #83
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To be honest with you, I think libertarianism (and I am talking about extreme forms of it) is incompatible with the rule of law and that's why it's never going to get anywhere.
And I agree, it can never deliver public education, healthcare, sanitation, basic research, safety in public or at home; all the elements of a civil society. An "ideal" state where it ends up existing may well be the frontiers where no such civil society exists or is expected by citizens; functional anarchy. But it is worthwhile to have groups arguing for an extreme pro-freedom position to keep the centre in the middle. Otherwise statists ideas will work their way through public policy and one way or another we surrender our freedoms - and again this is what we see with blanket wiretaps, sedition laws, anti-blasphemy laws, prohibition etc.

If it's from the right or the left there always has to be lunatics out there calling it and defending those liberties.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:38 PM   #84
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So unless I actively support government force against bigots I implicitly support bigotry?
You'll have to answer that question when you look in the mirror.



Quote:
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By that logic the ACLU supports the KKK and neo-Nazis.
They do, which is why I've never joined them.


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It is better to be defending monsters for the right reasons than to be punishing them in a wrong way.
I disagree.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:45 PM   #85
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If it is a question of defending free speech absolutely then make no mistake I have no qualms; second hand smoke is harm and it is a violation of the no harm principle - maintaining a safe workplace is the same - but speech is pure liberty, and it is worth dying for as so many have shown (recent case being that offensive prick Theo Van Gough who was butchered by a Muslim terrorist for insulting Islam).

I think it is reasonable to say that if you are opposed to the right of certain people to free speech then you don't support free speech. The question then becomes is your boycott of the ACLU an act of concience and excercise of free association or a stance taken because you think that fascists and racists don't deserve the right to express their views like everybody else.
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:04 PM   #86
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What sets libertarianism apart from both social democrats and conservatives is that as a poltiical philosophy it does not demand that government power is used to make people do the right thing - it puts the burden of choice back to the individual; and that idea alone is a redeeming feature and the reason that it should have an important place in the political arena even though a libertarian party will never ever be elected to run a country.
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Old 01-10-2007, 10:13 AM   #87
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What sets libertarianism apart from both social democrats and conservatives is that as a poltiical philosophy it does not demand that government power is used to make people do the right thing - it puts the burden of choice back to the individual; and that idea alone is a redeeming feature and the reason that it should have an important place in the political arena even though a libertarian party will never ever be elected to run a country.
Most "libertarians" I know or hear talk are just neo-cons trying not to be neo-cons.

Placing the burden of choice back to the individual is great in theory, but as we see with iron horse's posts it just looks like an excuse to be hedonistic; he wants to smoke, carry guns, doesn't care if we have poisons in our food, and doesn't care if religion is displayed everyone as long as it's his.
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Old 01-10-2007, 10:30 AM   #88
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We are perfeclty well doing without a liberal party

In fact, we do have a liberal party, but "Most "libertarians" I know or hear talk are just neo-cons trying not to be neo-cons." suits them very well.

Even more, they just try to postion themselves where they are likely to get the most votes to be part of the government.
They don't do real liberal politics and are very much focussed on the interests of the economy and rich people.


But at least we have some more parties than only two.
At the moment there are five parties in the German Bundestag.
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Old 01-10-2007, 10:42 AM   #89
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Most "libertarians" I know or hear talk are just neo-cons trying not to be neo-cons.

Placing the burden of choice back to the individual is great in theory, but as we see with iron horse's posts it just looks like an excuse to be hedonistic; he wants to smoke, carry guns, doesn't care if we have poisons in our food, and doesn't care if religion is displayed everyone as long as it's his.
Firstly I don't have a problem with religion being prominently displayed provided that not one cent of it is from taxpayers money or on public property; most libertarians oppose the Boy Scouts of America percecuting gays and atheists for that very reason; the government shall neither promote or persecute religious belief - the cornerstone of a secular society is also a rather libertarian position; if you thik that the state has a role adopting religious policy then you are falling into the category of social conservatism more than libertarian.

Most people have a modicum of self control; they don't protest healthy lifestyles by going out and killing themselves but as I have to reiterate the freedom to make the wrong choice is genuine whereas the "freedom" to only make the right choices that fit within the consensus of what society views as right is an illusion - if marijuana was legalised would I start smoking it, no; because I don't want to expose myself. If LSD was legalised would I try it; quite possibly because I fancy the idea and the risks are low: just because some people make bad choices is not cause to make the choices for everybody. Any argument that is built on a platform that the people can't live with freedom risks going to a dark place.

Lastly given that the Libertarian Party of the US opposes the Iraq War and supports a hardline isolationist (bar trade) foreign policy I hardly see how it can be categorised as neoconservative. Of course neocon seems to conjur up so many meanings; Republicans, Theocrats and Rich New York Bankers - disparately linked by a title.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:36 PM   #90
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most libertarians oppose the Boy Scouts of America percecuting gays and atheists for that very reason
Nope. The Boy Scouts are a private organization, and therefore can keep out whomever they want.
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