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Old 01-07-2007, 01:50 PM   #16
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Originally posted by anitram


Smoke 8 packs a day in your own home for all I care.

Smoke it anywhere where I can smell it, and your liberty ends where it starts infringing on mine.
Not if it's in a privately owned venue where the owner allows smoking.
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Old 01-07-2007, 02:14 PM   #17
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In all fairness, I have trouble with this line of thinking, as the reality is we all as citizens pay for a lot of things we may not agree with. The list is nearly endless. The potential for others to get their noses into anyone's life and habits are also nearly endless, when this line of thinking takes precedence.

That's my take on it, anyhow. I'm not a capital L libertarian by any stretch.
Well then let's legalize drunk driving!!!
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Old 01-07-2007, 02:18 PM   #18
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Not if that means using force to stop people from doing the stupid things to themselves.
Who said anyone is using force? No one said they have to stop, I just want to be able to go out in public and not have my infant put in danger by their habits, I don't want to pay higher insurance due to their ignorance.
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Old 01-07-2007, 02:35 PM   #19
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And you do that with bans, and where do you draw the line for these bans? In the street, in all public buildings? in pubs, clubs and restaurants? How is the ban held up; what threat will force people to modify their behaviour?
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Old 01-07-2007, 02:40 PM   #20
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And you do that with bans, and where do you draw the line for these bans? In the street, in all public buildings? in pubs, clubs and restaurants? How is the ban held up; what threat will force people to modify their behaviour?
I don't care about modifying someones behaviour. And I'm not a fan of full on bans. But people should have a choice to go somewhere in public where they aren't poisoned.
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Old 01-07-2007, 03:28 PM   #21
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Not if it's in a privately owned venue where the owner allows smoking.
The law has moved to ban smoking even in some of those venues. Here, no smoking in bars, pubs, clubs, restaurants, sports arenas, etc.

The way it should be. Second hand smoke is a health issue. Your freedom ends where public peril begins.
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Old 01-07-2007, 06:04 PM   #22
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I'd prefer public nudity to public smoking...at least nudity doesn't hurt anyone.
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Old 01-07-2007, 06:26 PM   #23
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Nudity doesn't hurt anyone?

Think of all the car driver that don't watch the traffic anymore and crash into another car or something
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:00 PM   #24
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well then let's legalize drunk driving!!!
I don't think I suggested anything even remotely like that.

For the record I support general non-smoking rules in public venues. If nothing else it's common courtesy. I don't argue that smoking is harmful. Even if those bans did not exist by law (as they do here), I'd always think people would be best to take it outside.

But the 'why should I pay for others' illnesses' thinking is what leads to total ban of all 'bad things' everywhere and anywhere (including your own home).
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:06 PM   #25
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Smoking in bars should be up to the owner of the establishment and nobody else. Period. There isn't even a good argument in this nonsense. If you're scared of second hand smoke then all you gotta do is not walk through the doors - go down the street to the non-smoking bar. If what all the PCF (Politically Correct Facists) say is true then the non-smoking bar will have way more people attending anyways - thus a more happening bar!!!
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:09 PM   #26
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Originally posted by Kieran McConville


But the 'why should I pay for others' illnesses' thinking is what leads to total ban of all 'bad things' everywhere and anywhere (including your own home).
But what I'm seeing in this thread is really nothing about being a libertarian, it just comes off as people who don't want to take any responsibility for their actions.
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:20 PM   #27
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Yes, well. Maybe that is part of the modern libertarian mindset. (a la Denis Leary's 'Asshole').

As I said earlier, I'm not claiming to be a libertarian. I guess I just as a general ethos turn that old 'it become's people's business when it hurts others' on its head and so instead I say, it becomes nobody's business when I'm minding my own business. They both mean the same thing, just the onus is different.

I'm not really addressing anything you said now, I guess, just thinking out loud.
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
Yes, well. Maybe that is part of the modern libertarian mindset. (a la Denis Leary's 'Asshole').

As I said earlier, I'm not claiming to be a libertarian. I guess I just as a general ethos turn that old 'it become's people's business when it hurts others' on its head and so instead I say, it becomes nobody's business when I'm minding my own business. They both mean the same thing, just the onus is different.

I'm not really addressing anything you said now, I guess, just thinking out loud.
Oh, believe me I know what you are saying. I by no means am a big supporter of full on bans, but I do believe in responsibility.



Quote:
I guess I just as a general ethos turn that old 'it become's people's business when it hurts others' on its head and so instead I say, it becomes nobody's business when I'm minding my own business. They both mean the same thing, just the onus is different.
But do they mean the same thing? Are you really just minding your own business when you are raising people's premiums, puting other people's health or life in risk?
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:34 PM   #29
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I dunno if anyone took my comment seriously (if they even noticed it), or if the thread would have gone this usual route anyway, but this paying for others illnesses is a slippery slope I think we can best avoid with sheer common sense. Common sense means voluntarily avoiding trans fats and all the others. It's the same principle which sees us welcome speed limits, seat belt laws, bike helmets and the responsible service of alcohol laws and so on. When it comes down to it, I dont actually care if my tax dollars (or in the case of the US with insurance premiums) pay for someone's triple bypass operation. My tax dollars mysteriously disappear regularly, and in time we see roads being cared for, and computers bought for the angelic little darlings in schools. We see hospital beds and operations paid for. I'm good with that. It's cool.

...I do question the idiocy of anyone who chooses to ignore sense and live needlessly recklessly. Live safe, live well, live long.
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But do they mean the same thing? Are you really just minding your own business when you are raising people's premiums, puting other people's health or life in risk?
I believe they do, yes. Broadly. Because if I am 'minding my own business', at the very least surely I'm NOT putting other people's life and health at risk!

Sitting in my own home enjoying a smoke?

Raising health premiums... maybe. But on that logic - and this is the problem I had from the start - we should be micromanaged in every aspect of our personal enjoyment.

I am not against personal responsibility, but there are such things as taking it to extremes. Principles can be taken too far. Connections can be drawn too far.

And isn't it all a bit selective? Motor vehicle exhaust, now... that's not going away anytime soon. But motorists aren't attacked because almost everybody is one, at some stage. And yes, because often there is little choice.

And maybe this is the little bit of (small l) libertarian in me... the kind of people who seek out political power often do take it too far, quite intentionally, because more control begets more power, all for our own good of course.
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