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Old 03-22-2003, 06:15 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


It is an opinion. It is mine, I stand by it.

Maybe the ambulance I saw in Boston, not able to get where it needed to should have just looked for a detour. It needed one.
I agree with you completely. Criminal behavior, even in the form of "free speech" cannot be justified as "American".

I guess what I was getting at was the often repeated phrase "a stance against the war is not anti-American". If we go through an exercise of what in principle is "American" (in terms of behaviors, rights and actions), we may find ourselves in a place we don't want to be at the end of the day.
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Old 03-22-2003, 06:20 PM   #62
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But the second I speak out about something I saw that was wrong, people turn it into something it wasn't. that is fine I guess. It is becoming the way of FYM twist, turn, and put words into other peoples mouths.

If you support the WAR you have no respect for human life.

It does not matter that I have written numerous posts about my belief that dissent is important in our country. My post is twisted and turned into something it was not.

Peace
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Old 03-22-2003, 06:47 PM   #63
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Originally posted by Screaming Flower
a genuine concern i have about these large protests is the safety and security issue. we're at war and we're at high alert. we're told that there is a decent chance that another attack could occur within our borders. i fear that because the police are busy watching over these protests, they aren't watching over the rest of the city. here in chicago it took an insane amount of cops to control a protest that took over lake shore drive. it was ludicrous. what if some terrorist or saddam sympathizer decided to profit from the distraction and blow something up? the cops have much bigger things to worry about than babysitting 1000s of protesters. i'm all for freedom of speech, and i don't believe the war/peace dialogue should simply end because we're now at war. i just don't like idea of it possibly having a detrimental effect on homeland security.
Damn...
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Old 03-22-2003, 06:48 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Flower
a genuine concern i have about these large protests is the safety and security issue. we're at war and we're at high alert. we're told that there is a decent chance that another attack could occur within our borders. i fear that because the police are busy watching over these protests, they aren't watching over the rest of the city. here in chicago it took an insane amount of cops to control a protest that took over lake shore drive. it was ludicrous. what if some terrorist or saddam sympathizer decided to profit from the distraction and blow something up? the cops have much bigger things to worry about than babysitting 1000s of protesters. i'm all for freedom of speech, and i don't believe the war/peace dialogue should simply end because we're now at war. i just don't like idea of it possibly having a detrimental effect on homeland security.
well put
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Old 03-23-2003, 01:38 AM   #65
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Never said that and I believe in the right to freedom of speech and to bring grievences to the governement.
I hope you're not implying that my vent was directed toward you-if that's what you think, that vent wasn't directed at you, that was directed at the people who answered that MSN poll saying war protests were "anti-American".

I realize you believe that we have a right to speak out against the war, and I really appreciate that. .

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
That is not what I have seen in Boston recently, nor is it what I have seen on TV.

I did not sign my name on the line to protect your right to protest when I joined the military to watch people illegally block streets and highways. Quite possibly, blocking abulances and fire trucks from getting to where they need to be.

I bleive in the right to protest in a lawful manner. What I have been witnessing in SOME cases is anything but that.
I agree with you on this.

Like I said earlier, blocking roads and traffic during a protest can be dangerous, and your saying that about ambulances and fire trucks (and police cars) being unable to go to where they really need to go proves that it's dangerous. That's not the way to do it.

And then of course there's the war protests where violence erupts...which really defeats the purpose of what you're protesting. That's not right, either.

Angela
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Old 03-23-2003, 02:31 AM   #66
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I think protesters are blocking the streets because they feel it will get their voices heard...
Wasn't Bono calling for people in the streets to stop AIDS?
If they feel that's what it takes to achieve what they feel is right, then they are going to do it, be it lawful or not.
I'm currantly unopinionated about that part, but I do have a bit of respect for people who are willing to break laws and get arrested for a cause.

I was at my father's house for a bit today. He was watching Fox News (can you say biased?), they were showing anti-war protest footage. I left when he started talking about how we should gas the protesters.

They have a photo of Bush on the mantle next to mine. I was a bit offended by that, but I felt it was better to keep the peace.

yes, this post is rather disjointed, sorry about that.
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Old 03-23-2003, 02:52 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Flower
a genuine concern i have about these large protests is the safety and security issue. we're at war and we're at high alert. we're told that there is a decent chance that another attack could occur within our borders. i fear that because the police are busy watching over these protests, they aren't watching over the rest of the city. here in chicago it took an insane amount of cops to control a protest that took over lake shore drive. it was ludicrous. what if some terrorist or saddam sympathizer decided to profit from the distraction and blow something up? the cops have much bigger things to worry about than babysitting 1000s of protesters. i'm all for freedom of speech, and i don't believe the war/peace dialogue should simply end because we're now at war. i just don't like idea of it possibly having a detrimental effect on homeland security.
but is that not then an accepted and inherent dangerin the war?
where does free speech stop and security continue?
the cops should just have more personnel, but, having said that, you cant put too many personnell on any one situation especially the safety and security of the city.

there are of course no 'ansers' to these questions. they are just spokes in the wheel. i guess the only potential answer is some sort of 'reason' persist in the minds of protesters...to have them say 'hey we might be opening more doors for terrorists than for politicians'.

anyhooo i dont really know what im talking about at htis hour...im sorry for posting in fym drunk
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Old 03-23-2003, 03:10 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


I hope you're not implying that my vent was directed toward you-if that's what you think, that vent wasn't directed at you, that was directed at the people who answered that MSN poll saying war protests were "anti-American".

I realize you believe that we have a right to speak out against the war, and I really appreciate that. .



I agree with you on this.

Like I said earlier, blocking roads and traffic during a protest can be dangerous, and your saying that about ambulances and fire trucks (and police cars) being unable to go to where they really need to go proves that it's dangerous. That's not the way to do it.

And then of course there's the war protests where violence erupts...which really defeats the purpose of what you're protesting. That's not right, either.

Angela
Yep, you are right. I have no problems to stay on the protestroute that is set out by the police and the organisation but no one can forbid people to protest for the things they believe in.

I was yesterday in Amsterdam and it was a peacefull protest ,it ended about 17.00. And about 18.00 ( i was at home already ) some violence erupts. This was after the protest but our glorius media highlighted this and said that the protest was a violent one.

The whole afternoon went peacefull and there was no media coverage, but if some dumb individuals trowing some stones after the protest,......
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Old 03-23-2003, 05:06 AM   #69
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If I were an Iraqi American I would be disgusted w/the anti-war movement.

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Old 03-23-2003, 06:11 AM   #70
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If I were an American I'd be disgusted with the war movement.

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Old 03-23-2003, 06:12 AM   #71
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I am not in America so I guess this changes things. For me, going to that big rally in the city was more of a gesture of solidarity and comfort. I badly needed it. It was informative as well, as people were handing out flyers, giving speeches and opinions, and protesters were making friends, exchanging views and information. I speak for myself. It never got out of hand, we needed less than twenty police officers, I think, to mobilise traffic.

Also, it was held on a Saturday, as our rallies always are, so there weren't kids trying to play truant


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Old 03-23-2003, 06:36 AM   #72
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There was violence and road blocks? Hmmm...yes it is weird to obstruct the traffic, but then again, isn't it the police job to secure safety in the cities?

We have some peace rallys here, but only a few got arrested, nothing big. Peaceful manner protest, no road blocks or major violence.
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Old 03-23-2003, 06:51 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
If I were an American I'd be disgusted with the war movement.

Ant.
Most Americans view the war movement as a human rights movement.
Thats right a human rights movement for the oppressed in Iraq.(75%)
Nearly all Iraqi-Americans view it as a human rights movement for their countrymen back home.

So after we liberate Iraq please explain your good intentions to the Iraqi ppl
who had
their tounges torn out of their mouths for opposing their govt...
-who watched their fathers be shot by Iraqi hench-men
-who watched their wives and daughters be raped by Saddams body guards
-who watched live people loaded up in to meat-grinders and killed diced and chopped up by Saddams Military..
-who watched their friends and family die by nerve gas unleashed by Saddam
-who have watched Saddam slaughter about 3-5 per cent of his country's population because they opposed him.

Go ahead Ant explain it all to them
knock yourself out..

Peace

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Old 03-23-2003, 08:05 AM   #74
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Well, you yourself have always contested the value of poll results everytime it doesn't swing in your favour, so forgive me if I am a tad sceptical about your particular result; I contest its value.

So much for polls.

As for your request as to 'explain' it to them;

I don't presume to have 'ANY' intentions whatsoever. Mine are not 'good' or 'bad'. Its a fine thing to be able to fit the compartments in boxes like that when regarding something so complex as war, but I myself can not do that.

What I can say to the Iraqis, on your own terms, is thus;

The truth is, generic Iraqi, I can't explain - there is no explanation that will justify your individual suffering. All I can say is my government is only doing this now because it suits them, and because they have something to gain. If it weren't for that, you would still be in that awful regime. And awful it is. However, and I am sorry to say this, I don't believe we are helping most of you in the long run. We're not because my government has other motives. Ultimately, I myself can not do anything to help you; if I could, I would. There are so many of you I would want to help. There are so many people in the world who suffer due to dictatorships - some of which have even been installed by the US and my own government - and so there is only so much I can do. The truth is, I am sorry.

I am sorry. I am sorry their tounges were torn out of your mouths for opposing your govt. I am sorry you had to watch your fathers be shot by Iraqi hench-men.
I am sorry you have had to watch your wives and daughters be raped by Saddams body guards. I am sorry you had to watch live people loaded up in to meat-grinders and killed diced and chopped up by Saddams Military (that I am not sure of, but I would not deem to accuse Diamond of exaggeration) .
I am sorry you had to watch your friends and family die by nerve gas unleashed by Saddam and I am sorry you had to watch Saddam slaughter about 3-5 per cent of his country's population because they opposed him.

And I'm sure the United Sates is sorry, too.

I'm sure the United States is sorry for supplying Saddam Hussein with the means to do so. I'm sorry the United States supported Iraq back in the 80's when it was busy killing thousands of Iranians as well as your fathers. I'm sorry President Bush Sr didn't care enough for your fathers, mothers, wives, children and friends to have done something about it then. I'm sorry the US didn't find it convenient then. I'm sorry so many Kurds lost their lives needlessly when their ill-fated insurrection closely after the Gulf War was not backed by the US - who evidently didn't care enough about you back then.

Thats right, Diamond, I said it right there; I'm sorry the US supported Saddam Hussein during the 80s, and make no mistake about it, make no attempt at dallying around with diplomatic hand-me-downs and by-words; they DID support them through military and weapons support, diplomatic inaction. If as so many of your war supporters have stated time and time again that 'if good men do nothing that is evil enough' is true, then how do you reconcile the US doing FAR more than not doing anything? You can't. The US made a huge mistake then and until people are held accountable for that, until people apologise for THAT Diamond, then my own apologies pale in comparison.

Why don't YOU explain why your government supported him once upon a time? Why don't YOU explain why your country supplied Saddam with the weapons that killed their fathers, killed their mothers, brutally destroyed their families, created countless of innocent orphans, deprived so many of the happiness we in the West are so privileged to have? Why don't YOU explain why this liberation is happening NOW? Why don't you explain why its the son doing what the father should have done? Why dont you explain why the US has had the change of heart? And please, do not do the usual thing and blame Clinton for something Bush Sr should have done right then and there in the Gulf war. It was obviously NOT in his or America's best interest. Why don't you explain to the orphaned, tortured and long-suffering child why you didn't do anything back then?

I am not the right person to explain.

My point exactly, Diamond; don't call people out with emotive writing - it is NOT a valid argument and all it does is make something already quite messy all the messier. If you have a valid argument, please present it adequately, as opposed to an emotive guilt trip.

Ant.
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Old 03-23-2003, 08:07 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


I hope you're not implying that my vent was directed toward you-if that's what you think, that vent wasn't directed at you, that was directed at the people who answered that MSN poll saying war protests were "anti-American".

I realize you believe that we have a right to speak out against the war, and I really appreciate that. .


I think I am getting good at reading too much into things lately. Sorry
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