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Old 11-11-2005, 05:34 AM   #46
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Jesus Christ this guy says something to which I can wholeheartedly agree.

I want to eat a kangaroo steak with you sometime.
Common ground, who would have thought.

Oh and btw we don't eat much Kangaroo, its too gamey. We stick to Koala
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Old 11-11-2005, 07:30 AM   #47
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When you kiddnap a Canadian with a Syrian name in the New York airport with no charges, you send him in an unknown prisoners camp somewhere in Aigypt, you torture him so that he tells what you want to hear, and you send him back after 1 year when his family consider him dead or missing what do you think that this is gonna create..?
Even when you build a "Guantanamo" where you hold illegaly the prisoners, this is that that creates anti-americanism...
I'm sure that most of the civilians in the States are kind and friendly and I don't know what else, but it's your goverment's decisions and actions that create all this wave of anti-americanism...
I'm sure everyone agrees that Saddam is a butcher, but who armed his hands in the war against Iran..?
More, why doesn't Bush invade to free the mid-Asian countries to save them from their dictators..?
When Bush says that "or you are with us, or you are against us" what do you think of the consequences of this statements..?
And when you say that 49% voted against Bush, what did the othe 50% or so did..?
C'mon we are talking about 160 million people...!!
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Old 11-11-2005, 10:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
When you kiddnap a Canadian with a Syrian name in the New York airport with no charges, you send him in an unknown prisoners camp somewhere in Aigypt, you torture him so that he tells what you want to hear, and you send him back after 1 year when his family consider him dead or missing what do you think that this is gonna create..?
Even when you build a "Guantanamo" where you hold illegaly the prisoners, this is that that creates anti-americanism...
I'm sure that most of the civilians in the States are kind and friendly and I don't know what else, but it's your goverment's decisions and actions that create all this wave of anti-americanism...
I'm sure everyone agrees that Saddam is a butcher, but who armed his hands in the war against Iran..?
More, why doesn't Bush invade to free the mid-Asian countries to save them from their dictators..?
When Bush says that "or you are with us, or you are against us" what do you think of the consequences of this statements..?
And when you say that 49% voted against Bush, what did the othe 50% or so did..?
C'mon we are talking about 160 million people...!!


good gosh. i can't be expected to answer for 160 million people when i'm one of the 140 million who dislike Bush tremendously. it's the use of the word "you" that really irks me -- i pretty much agree with everything you're saying, yet you've essentially put me on the spot to disagree with what i agree with because you're making such assumptions and lumping millions of people -- there are 10m people in Greece; there are over 20 million people in the NYC/NJ/CT greater metropolitan region alone and over 35 million people in California alone -- who have a much, much more nuanced view of life in the US and US foreign policy aims and intentions than you have. i would never, ever presume to lecture a Greek (or a Pole, or a Thai, or an Indian) about the evils of their government with a sort of "well, what do you expect?" attitude when i don't know the first thing about the local and domestic politics that went into getting that government elected in the first place. you're sort of saying, in effect, with anti-Americanism "what do you expect?" and i would say, i'd expect people to make differentiations firstly between citizens and their government, and secondly the wide variety of opinion and an exceedingly complex political situation that, frankly, someone who isn't a citizen -- or hasn't lived in that particular country for years -- could ever possibly understand.

while i understand your point, i have to say that just because there's an explanation for an attitude doesn't mean that such an attitude is excused.
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Old 11-11-2005, 11:44 AM   #49
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When I use the word "you" I mean the goverment or the man that makes this actions...

I agree that people must make differentiations between citizens and their goverment, but what can you say to a man that his house's been raided, he's been arrested, and I don't know what else..?
Can you tell him that the Americans are good and kind and polite..? Or you can tell him: "yeah but in the States the life is good, your neighbors will be friendly..."
If you never heard about it there is an American naval base just 4 km's from where I live...
Can you explain me that..? And I can't go to the area of the base-wich is "property" of my country- because there is a base some thousand miles away from the U.S.A. This base is not here for 5 or so years it's here for 30 or 40 years...What are the purposes of that base..?
I've seen with my own eyes drunk soldiers that cause many serious troubles, and leave unpunished...
Not to mention the pollution of the enviroment...Cancer in my region is one of the main causes of death...And in Crete-the island I live- people died in 80+ some years ago...

What I'm trying to tell and maybe I can't
tell it right because I don't speak the language so good is that noone wants from U.S.A. to be the World's policeman...
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Old 11-11-2005, 12:01 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by menelaos
When I use the word "you" I mean the goverment or the man that makes this actions...

I agree that people must make differentiations between citizens and their goverment, but what can you say to a man that his house's been raided, he's been arrested, and I don't know what else..?
Can you tell him that the Americans are good and kind and polite..? Or you can tell him: "yeah but in the States the life is good, your neighbors will be friendly..."
If you never heard about it there is an American naval base just 4 km's from where I live...
Can you explain me that..? And I can't go to the area of the base-wich is "property" of my country- because there is a base some thousand miles away from the U.S.A. This base is not here for 5 or so years it's here for 30 or 40 years...What are the purposes of that base..?
I've seen with my own eyes drunk soldiers that cause many serious troubles, and leave unpunished...
Not to mention the pollution of the enviroment...Cancer in my region is one of the main causes of death...And in Crete-the island I live- people died in 80+ some years ago...

What I'm trying to tell and maybe I can't
tell it right because I don't speak the language so good is that noone wants from U.S.A. to be the World's policeman...


i appreciate your comments, and appreciate your making them in English -- i don't speak any Greek, so thank you for expressing yourself.

i think we mostly agree. but please understand that it's hard for me not to take personally criticisms of America or even the American government. i might agree with your criticisms, but there's something inside me that just needs to explain, to try and show the other side, to not necessarily change an opinion but to try and present a more complex understanding of how and why the US does what it does.

as for the naval base, i really can't speak to that, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be there if the Greek government didn't allow it to be there. and we could get into long discussions about how the military power of the US defended Europe from Soviet invasion over the past 50 years and how this defense enabled European countries to develop comprehensive social safety nets and so on and so forth ... but that discussion has happened a million and one times so i feel no need to go there again.
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Old 11-11-2005, 01:54 PM   #51
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I just made these comments 'cause I can't sit and hear that there is a growing anti-americanism just because it's "trendy" to critisize the americans...
Just this...I didn't want to be offensive...
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Old 11-11-2005, 02:20 PM   #52
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Originally posted by menelaos
Just this...I didn't want to be offensive...


i never thought you were offensive.

i have enjoyed our discussion.

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Old 11-11-2005, 07:08 PM   #53
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Me too, really...
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Old 11-11-2005, 07:29 PM   #54
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The fact is.....

This administration could have gone about many things differently after 9/11 that would have made things better today.

The American people could have voted him out and did not.

It does not make us look good in most of the world.

The whole torture thing, makes us look shitty. The fact is, they relaxed restrictions but did not make sure any were in place.

Too many liberties taken in the name of defending our soil, but we forgot to defend our soul.
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:25 PM   #55
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I agree with you, Dread, and let's be honest, the blame lies with big shots in both parties. Right now there's sort of a vacuum of leadership in both parties, and it's no surprise that the results of Virginia and New Jersey got so much attention, Virginia in particular as it went for Bush last year but just elected a moderate Democrat governor.
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Old 11-12-2005, 12:41 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


The American people could have voted him out and did not.

I think you nailed it.

Had the American people ousted Bush in 2004, you would still probably have rampant terrorism in the middle east, and pockets of anti-Americanism in certain countries, but I think a lot of respect would have been bought back in places like Canada and Western Europe, where people are just boggled by the fact that a man so incompetent, so unlikeable and so hostile to the remainder of the world would be elected on little more than a platform of anti-homosexual bigotry and abortion.

I wish Bush wasn't your president. I wish this administration wasn't in power. Because they have done you such an incredible amount of damage around the world that I am not sure many of you even comprehend it. He has been bad for your country, bad for global co-operation, and the sooner he and any remnants of this corrupt administration are gone, the better it will be.

Mercifully, it looks like the tide is really starting to turn against them.
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Old 11-12-2005, 10:59 AM   #57
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
The fact is.....

This administration could have gone about many things differently after 9/11 that would have made things better today.

The American people could have voted him out and did not.

It does not make us look good in most of the world.

The whole torture thing, makes us look shitty. The fact is, they relaxed restrictions but did not make sure any were in place.

Too many liberties taken in the name of defending our soil, but we forgot to defend our soul.






we agree again.
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Old 11-12-2005, 01:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




good gosh. i can't be expected to answer for 160 million people when i'm one of the 140 million who dislike Bush tremendously. it's the use of the word "you" that really irks me -- i pretty much agree with everything you're saying, yet you've essentially put me on the spot to disagree with what i agree with because you're making such assumptions and lumping millions of people -- there are 10m people in Greece; there are over 20 million people in the NYC/NJ/CT greater metropolitan region alone and over 35 million people in California alone -- who have a much, much more nuanced view of life in the US and US foreign policy aims and intentions than you have. i would never, ever presume to lecture a Greek (or a Pole, or a Thai, or an Indian) about the evils of their government with a sort of "well, what do you expect?" attitude when i don't know the first thing about the local and domestic politics that went into getting that government elected in the first place. you're sort of saying, in effect, with anti-Americanism "what do you expect?" and i would say, i'd expect people to make differentiations firstly between citizens and their government, and secondly the wide variety of opinion and an exceedingly complex political situation that, frankly, someone who isn't a citizen -- or hasn't lived in that particular country for years -- could ever possibly understand.

while i understand your point, i have to say that just because there's an explanation for an attitude doesn't mean that such an attitude is excused.
that's exactly it. sorry, but the united states is not the only country to elect leaders who might seem like obvious idiots to an outsider.

menelaos...there's actually a thread in the "war" subforum on the actual statistics regarding who was giving Saddam arms, you might find it interesting. I do agree with your general point though, I know we've armed quite a few undesirable groups throughout the years and are paying for it now in many cases.

there's a reason there are so many bases throughout Europe and it's not because we want to give people cancer or something...trust me, I wish we'd get rid of them too, seems like a waste of money to me.

anyway, I for one am glad the country seems to be swinging towards the Dems somewhat...now they need to find some good leadership. (unlike the last pres. campaign)
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Old 11-12-2005, 02:08 PM   #59
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Originally posted by anitram

Because they have done you such an incredible amount of damage around the world that I am not sure many of you even comprehend it.
Many of us do in fact comprehend it.
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Old 11-12-2005, 03:50 PM   #60
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Joyfulgirl, I know that. But there are also a lot of people I know in the US who are really totally oblivious to both the fact that the world has a much more negative view than it did, say 10 years ago, and also have no idea at all why that should be.

I think people on this forum are not necessarily representative of the population at large. I mean, clearly it's true when it came time to the election, right?
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