Ann Coulter calls John Edwards a "faggot" - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-04-2007, 08:54 PM   #61
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Yeah, I know. I always hope for better against all evidence, I guess. I know better.
__________________

__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 09:03 PM   #62
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 11:29 AM
I do understand the reaction, but I don't think "I vote for it even though it's of no self-interest to me" is the same as saying "I vote for it even though I think it's against my interests."
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 09:06 PM   #63
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Let me see if I get this right. Not being a big fan of the Democrats by any means....but if the gays get the full equal rights they are entitled to, a ton of them will then abandon many of the rest of us in our own struggles now that they got theirs.
That's troubling. I understand that mostly monolithic blocks vote in their own self-interest. But as a matter of self-interest, why would I continue to vote for pro-gay candidates and issues (which I have always done) when it is of no personal self-interest to me other than it is right, when many gays are then going to align themselves with a party that traditionally fucks my interests?
I will continue my voting pattern because I think it is right, but part of me is rightly disillusioned and a little bit disgusted.
My argument was predicated on the Democrats maintaining their status quo and Republicans having a hypothetical "change of heart," not so differently from when they went from being viciously anti-civil rights in the 1960s to being supportive of them in the 1970s.

My whole point, I guess, is that the Democratic Party cannot merely "assume" support from gay people forever, if their idea of being "supportive" is saying that they'll support gay rights on one hand and passing anti-gay legislation (like Clinton's signing of the "Defense of Marriage Act") on the other hand.

Right now? I don't know what the Democratic Party has done to deserve my support currently. Their support for us has been lukewarm to cold lately, and I don't like it. I don't like it when the most reliably and overwhelmingly Democratic state in the nation--Massachusetts--can still have a "Defense of Marriage Act" have serious consideration. Granted, I will accept that the last time around, their hands were tied with that petition, but the fact that a state legislature with over 3/4 Democrats can have prior votes on such narrow terms is problematic for me. And, obviously, the climate fares much worse in the rest of the nation.

The Republican Party, obviously, disgusts the hell out of me, but I find it problematic that Giuliani, out of all the presidential candidates in both parties, appears the most "gay friendly." Granted, I'm fully expecting him to sell out to appeal to the conservative wing of his own party, but the Democratic candidates are already completely worthless on this subject.

You pose the question as to why you should vote for gay-friendly candidates if you believe that they'll fuck you over once they get their rights. Well, I'll pose this question:

Why should I vote for candidates that support your interests when they have none of my interests at heart?

Repealing estate taxes would indirectly help me out a lot more than tax breaks for "working families"--since, after all, gay people can't form "families." They're just cohabiting strangers in the eyes of the law, which means that the surviving "stranger" gets hit with a massive inheritance tax regardless of how wealthy they are.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 09:10 PM   #64
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Yolland, I understand that distinction. What began as I vote for it even though it is of no-self interest to me becomes I should be aware that many of those for whose interests I vote may then turn around and vote against my interest. A small, but uneasy shift in emphasis. Doesn't change my vote, but changes my perception. I'm warier.

I support, but not blindly.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 09:13 PM   #65
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


Why should I vote for candidates that support your interests when they have none of my interests at heart?
Because maybe you realize that they support interests and policies that are best for the society at large?

I've alternately been a poor student and somebody quite comfortable financially, able to travel around the world, had a pretty good investment portfolio, etc. Both those times I voted for the party (not the same one) which I thought had the best policies for the province or country as a whole, not for what party offered incentives that helped my ass and nobody else's.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 09:16 PM   #66
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra
Unfortunately that type of reaction seems to be typical, no matter the group. Once you fit in with the "big boys" you don't give a flying fuck about those you used to be with. I think a part of it that people want to join the big party (I don't mean politically, although in this case that's what it is) they've been missing out on. I also think there might be a bit of a feeling that unless they join the "top" group they will be easier to push back down where they used to be.
Right. So once you support a party, you have to always support them out of "gratitude"? I can imagine that being abused by political parties.

Ideally, elections should be a competition of ideas, with the party with the best ideas winning. In reality, thanks to this inane "culture war," all we get is a monolithic pissing match on both sides, and both parties get a free pass on actually coming up with new ideas.

I want to emphasize that I despise both political parties in this country right now. I think they're wholly lacking in ideas and leadership, and they've gotten away with passing around unqualified "image" candidates for way too long. We're too busy looking for someone who "looks presidential," rather than asking what ideas that they have in the future. The fact that the Democrats are salivating over whether we could have a "woman president" or a "black president" is precisely what's wrong with politics today. I'm solely interested in the person with the best ideas, not the person with the most attractive demographic.

I look forward to the day when I don't have to choose between the party that hates me and the one who merely tolerates me. I love the fact that U.K. politics, for instance, has gone beyond that, where (correct me if I'm wrong) both the main Labour Party and the Tories are both gay friendly. It would seem like such a luxury for me, if I could choose between the Democratic Party and Republican Party, based on the party with the best ideas, rather than which party I must choose, due to my unchangeable demographic in the "culture wars."
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 09:22 PM   #67
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Because maybe you realize that they support interests and policies that are best for the society at large?
That would be a good argument, except that I think that neither party here has interests or policies that are best for society. I'm not particularly thrilled with either party's platform currently.

That's where I start envying countries like Canada that have more than two parties to choose from.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 09:26 PM   #68
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:29 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ormus
[B]

You pose the question as to why you should vote for gay-friendly candidates if you believe that they'll fuck you over once they get their rights. Well, I'll pose this question:

Why should I vote for candidates that support your interests when they have none of my interests at heart?

QUOTE]


You're incorrect as to what my self-interests are. I have no self-interest in family-friendly laws. I have no family. I will never have one. I have employee rights issues. I have women issues. I have age issues. I have human issues as do you. They're different from yours but not so far off. I recognize how gays have been fucked.

I understand your contempt for the Democrats. I don't see them as champions. I see them on the whole as opportunists, talking a talk they have no real intention of walking. But I see them as the lesser of two evils. You'll find that consistent in my posts. I switched my registration to "No party" because of my own contempt. I'd rather more choices. I'd rather more freedom in who can afford to run. I don't have them right now.

You have no reason to vote for my interests. I'll take your rationales with a grain of salt since you don't know fucking jack about me, nor did you even bother to ask what my self-interests
were. You assumed wrong. I expected better if you want better.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 10:21 PM   #69
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus

Right. So once you support a party, you have to always support them out of "gratitude"?
I didn't say that. The groups I noted people would abandon as they moved "up" in the world are groups of people -- not political parties.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 10:27 PM   #70
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


I think I read somewhere that around 25% of voters identifying as homosexual, voted for Bush in 2004.


it was more like 17%.

it's also statistically nearly impossible to go below 10%, for whatever that's worth.

it's also possible that there are many gay Mary Cheney's out there, those who believe in the Republican platform -- or just want a tax break -- who vote Republican, and there might be many more who would vote Republican if they hadn't made hating gays politically safe for some Christians.

whether i think this is good or bad is irrelevant; i think Melon is right, people ultimately vote what is in their interests first. we might not do this, we might not like it when people do, but i don't think we can expect gays to be saintly -- in the way that we can't expect, say, blacks to be saintly -- simply because they've been oppressed. in fact, many gay people, because they've been dicked over by both parties, are more libertarian in viewpoint, and the libertarian has traditionally (though certainly not any more) found a more accomodating viewpoint on the right with the Republicans. this has changed, dramatically, thanks to Bush and the proscriptive Christianism he/they think is best for everybody, but in the 1980s, if you thought government was the enemy, and many gays do, then you probably voted for Reagan.

is your average gay more sympathetic to any and all civil rights causes due to a shared history of oppression? absolutely. but we can't expect all gays to feel this way.

some gays are assholes.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 11:28 PM   #71
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
You're incorrect as to what my self-interests are.
Well, before we go any further here, I never pretended to know what your interests were. I was speaking in generalities. After all, the Democratic Party likes to talk about things like tax cuts for "working families," which tends to imply that those who are forced to file "single" on their tax return are going to be left out.

That statement did not require me having to know who you are or what your interests are, and I apologize if anything I said made you believe that I was speaking of anything except generalities.

Quote:
But I see them as the lesser of two evils.
And you should have noticed that I've stated just that, albeit in different words. Chances are, in 2008, I will find myself forced to vote Democratic to avoid the greater evil.

But what a sorry state our American society is in that we have to think that way every time we vote. Don't people believe that we deserve better than this?
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 11:44 PM   #72
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:29 AM
B]Why should I vote for candidates that support your interests when they have none of my interests at heart?

You did say "your interests" which I understood as mine, not a generalization. I stand corrected. Not totally convinced, but corrected.

I understood you considered at this point, the Democrats to be the lesser of two evils (my words) And I agree with you. I've been reduced to voting against something and not for something.
I'm very tired and dismayed and cynical about this. There is not one person running right now for whom I will willingly cast a vote.

I'm not unsupportive. I just know how much support we all need.
I think you'll find for the most part, women have been supportive of gay rights. Maybe there was a kinship there. Or maybe just an inherent understanding. But women also have the history of being the supporters too often left behind once a goal was reached and their usefulness ended. I'm a little tired of us being fucking fools. So I have a sensitivity there.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 11:45 PM   #73
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it's also possible that there are many gay Mary Cheney's out there, those who believe in the Republican platform -- or just want a tax break -- who vote Republican, and there might be many more who would vote Republican if they hadn't made hating gays politically safe for some Christians.
Here's my take on this subject. There are many people who vote Democratic or Republican for various reasons; some of them very noble, some of them out of fear, some of them out of peer pressure, some of them out of ignorance...whatever. We all have our reasons.

What I don't like, perhaps, is feeling compelled to vote for one party based on a single issue that, while being the core of who I am, is not the entirety of me. And, like any corporation, a political party is going to (d)evolve with the times. It might surprise people to know that the Progressive Era of the late 19th century and early 20th century had significant Republican support, while Woodrow Wilson loved "Birth of a Nation" so much that he thought everyone should see it (it probably helped that the film quoted him in an intertitle). "Role reversals" happen. Ideology changes. And I'd love the luxury of being able to vote based on platform, rather than which party hates me the least.

Quote:
but in the 1980s, if you thought government was the enemy, and many gays do, then you probably voted for Reagan.
It's not as if the government has a great track record, considering most of our elected officials are bumbling fools. As such, I do tend to support "smaller government," but I also believe that the GOP mainly pays lip service to that idea. Our government is as large and intrusive as it has ever been!

Quote:
is your average gay more sympathetic to any and all civil rights causes due to a shared history of oppression? absolutely. but we can't expect all gays to feel this way.
I certainly care about civil rights. I care about it greatly. And that's why I get so angry when I feel that the party that has traditionally held the mantle of equality is betraying our trust. Has the Democratic Party's actions matched its words? Or are they as much empty rhetoric as the GOP's supposed love of "small government"?
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 11:50 PM   #74
War Child
 
Ormus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
I think you'll find for the most part, women have been supportive of gay rights. Maybe there was a kinship there. Or maybe just an inherent understanding. But women also have the history of being the supporters too often left behind once a goal was reached and their usefulness ended. So I have a sensitivity there.
Women's rights are one of the things that I'm a strong supporter of. Hell, I end up taking great offense when I encounter chauvinism, sexist jokes, or anything that treats women as anything less than autonomous, intelligent human beings.

If anything, we, in many ways, have a shared struggle, as many homophobic attitudes stem, as a result, of stereotypes of men's attitudes against women.
__________________
Ormus is offline  
Old 03-04-2007, 11:55 PM   #75
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:29 AM
Agreed. I've noticed your support of women in previous posts.
I've never had an issue with your personal support as I hope you've never had an issue with mine.
__________________

__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com