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Old 03-14-2002, 09:18 AM   #16
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db9 I would've expected a more intelligent comment than "let her fry" from you.

None of us here have the facts, but it does bug me that the jury wasn't told about the alternative.

was she insane? possibly. what drives a mother to methodically drown her five children and then call 911. It's not normal. Neither is the woman who ran into a homeless person, drove home with him in her windshield and then left him there three days to die while continously going out to her garage and apologising.

Not Guilty by reason of insanity or temporary insanity is a hard line to argue. It bugs me that it is used as a last-ditch resort by defense attorney's (see the Tulloch case in NH in my hometown as an example).

In my opinion, everything in the Yates case points to her being mentally disturbed. Did she know that she had done wrong. You could argue yes because she called 911. However, if she had a serious mental disorder, she may have not had a choice even if she knew she was doing wrong. The human mind can behave very oddly when disturbed.

She CAN be made to pay for her crimes AND recieve treatment. Psychiatric hospitals are NOT fun and games. If she has a mental disorder, she probably would be in the hospital for years considering what she did.

If she is sent to prison for life she will not recieve proper treatment and will probably only get worse.

Executing her makes no sense to me personally.

I think a lot of people who commit violent crimes suffer from mental disorders. Where we draw the line on who recieve treatment and who goes to jail is hard to figure out. I don't even know.

People who are found not guilty by reason of insanity are stigmatized by society. Billy Milligan is a good example.

Most people don't suffer from disorders so it is hard for them to understand how disturbed people can be the way they are, and so they refuse to see the possibility.

Anyway you side, it is very sad and disturbing. There are no winners in this case, that is the only thing I am sure of.

And the whole "we can treat mental disorders with a pill" crap is exactly that: CRAP. A band aid approach to very serious issues.

Putting our children on Ritilan, plopping everyone with depression on Prozac is nuts. Managed Health Care won't pay for proper therapy many times. There are a lot of people who suffer from mental disorders who never recieve the proper treatment and get worse because of it.

And some would argue that our current society breeds mental disorders. Read Eric Fromm's "Escape From Freedom"...
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Old 03-14-2002, 10:25 AM   #17
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
dream wanderer, you are unfortunately correct. Growing up in a missionary family, I remember with perfect clarity what it was like to have my mother suffering from clinical depression for years...and having people tell her to her face that she just needed to "trust God more" or some bullshit like that. She was physically sick for a long time and no doctors could diagnose her. It was really awful. Finally, we came back to the States and she got help via counselling and some medication. Now, she's better than I remember her being in YEARS and my parents were able to go back to their mission work. As it was, had my father listened to the naysayers about psychology being "un-Christian", my mom would still be sick and they would have quit their jobs. If anything pisses me off within the religious community, this is the major thing.
Sula, I am sorry about the experiences of your mother. That must have been awful.

But, be careful when you throw out the phrase "trust God more or some bullshit like that". I don't think we ever trust God enough, no matter what our condition. There is always room to grow.

I definitely know what some people are saying when they say "psychology is un-Christian". It can definitely be taken too far. When they give out mind drugs like they were mints, we've got a problem in this society. My friend was depressed for years. Her doctor prescribed drugs to her, and even recommended she go to a mental hospital. She said it was the worst mistake she ever made in her life. It made her worse. She left the hospital and slowly got off the drugs, and she's been much better. And how did she get better? By meditation on God's word and complete faith in Him.
Now, that being said, I realize that there may be times when a chemical imbalance is in question, and people may need help from psychologists. But, that is not always the case, and in this society it is just so damn easy for the psychologist to just throw drugs at a problem. I've seen it in more case than one. Our kids are growing up on Ritalin - and why? Because they're hyper. Hell, I was hyper when I was a kid. No drugs were forced on me. I grew up. I grew out of my hyperness. I don't suffer from depression.
I think the fact that kids are being so doped up early in their lives is often what leads to tehir depression as adults. That was almost certainly the case with my fore-mentioned friend.
Another problem I have with secular psychologists is that many "enable" their patients. They help their patients continue in "victim mode", and often tell them just what they want to hear.
Another friend's wife went to a psychologist when she felt like her marriage was going nowhere. What was the advice given to her? Go with your feelings - if you're not happy, it's okay to leave him. You must be true to yourself. No "why don't you go see a marriage counselor", nothing.
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Old 03-14-2002, 10:29 AM   #18
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About Andrea Yates, I think that she was maybe possessed. But she may have gone insane. However, in my mind, that doesn't lessen what punishment she should receive - life in prison.
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Old 03-14-2002, 11:04 AM   #19
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disclaimer: the below post has nothing to do with the Yates trial.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
But, be careful when you throw out the phrase "trust God more or some bullshit like that". I don't think we ever trust God enough, no matter what our condition. There is always room to grow.
After my experiences with the uncaring attitudes in which this advice was given, I would stand by that phrase. My mother WAS in prayer and desperately seeking God and doing all the right things as far as spirituality goes. But depression is a physical ailment. Or at least hers was. And it made me sick to my stomach to hear self-righteous people who had no fucking clue about mental illness to look down on her and to judge her Christianity by the fact that she was suffering from depression. As if it was something she could do anything about. God gave us brains. He gave us resources. He expects us to use them. If you are sick with cancer, you don't sit around passively praying and hoping God will heal you. Of course you pray, but you also use the resources available to you and you go get medical help. It is called common sense...not being "un-Christian". I see no difference with mental illnesses. But unfortunately, there are many (not all, of course, but in my experience it has been the overwhelming majority) within Christianity that place mental illness into an entirely different category.

For goodness sake, there was even one woman that had the gall to suggest my mom was being oppressed by demons. Thank God I wasn't in the room at the time because I think I would have decked her. Talk about making a sick person feel infinitely worse.

When it comes down to it, I think there is a lack of education and a lack of understanding within much of the Christian community. A fully integrated human includes a healthy mind, body, and spirit. Unfortunately, we tend to focus on the spirit and body part and leave the mind to fend for itself. In my experience, the party line tends to take whatever is happening in "secular" society (ie. developments in psychology), view it with suspicion just because it did not originate in the Christian world, and then dismiss it without due consideration. I have seen this happen over and over in the mission organization in which my parents work. And I've also seen dozens of dedicated missionaries broken and scarred as a result of the callous treatment of these very REAL problems that are not acknowledged or are blamed upon those who are suffering. The way I see it, Jesus was a man of intense care and someone who had compassion on people. I can't see how beating our own brothers and sisters down reflects well on our faith or on Jesus himself.

Granted, I probably sound rather opinionated on this subject, but it is one in which I have had very personal experience and a good amount of run-ins with the kind of attitudes I described above.

So in conclusion, I wouldn't say that trusting God is bullshit. But telling a person suffering from mental illness that somehow it is their fault and if they just "trusted God" enough they would be fine...THAT is bullshit. Quite frankly, I think that if we gave each other more grace in day to day life and nurtured each other as members of the body of Christ, quite a lot of potential stress victims and depression victims would not end up in that state. In the mission community, I know of several organizations that have woken up to this fact and now have trained psychologists and counselors spend time with the various missionaries on the field at least once a year to talk through the stress of their job and any issues that might be arising. Rather than wait until the missionary is burnt out and ready to quit, this proactive approach seems to me to be a much more caring and intelligent way to go about things: recognizing that we as humans are going to need help and that we are vulnerable to emotional and mental suffering. Writing those things off as spiritual weakness seems to me to show a complete lack of understanding what "carrying each others burdens" is all about.

so those are my thoughts.

[This message has been edited by sulawesigirl4 (edited 03-14-2002).]
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Old 03-14-2002, 11:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
For goodness sake, there was even one woman that had the gall to suggest my mom was being oppressed by demons. Thank God I wasn't in the room at the time because I think I would have decked her. Talk about making a sick person feel infinitely worse.

Granted, I probably sound rather opinionated on this subject, but it is one in which I have had very personal experience and a good amount of run-ins with the kind of attitudes I described above.

So in conclusion, I wouldn't say that trusting God is bullshit. But telling a person suffering from mental illness that somehow it is their fault and if they just "trusted God" enough they would be fine...THAT is bullshit. Quite frankly, I think that if we gave each other more grace in day to day life and nurtured each other as members of the body of Christ, quite a lot of potential stress victims and depression victims would not end up in that state. In the mission community, I know of several organizations that have woken up to this fact and now have trained psychologists and counselors spend time with the various missionaries on the field at least once a year to talk through the stress of their job and any issues that might be arising. Rather than wait until the missionary is burnt out and ready to quit, this proactive approach seems to me to be a much more caring and intelligent way to go about things: recognizing that we as humans are going to need help and that we are vulnerable to emotional and mental suffering. Writing those things off as spiritual weakness seems to me to show a complete lack of understanding what "carrying each others burdens" is all about.
so those are my thoughts.
[This message has been edited by sulawesigirl4 (edited 03-14-2002).]
Sula, I hope you know I was not talking about your mother's situation when I called into question your statement about "trusting God...bullshit". I was just applying that to life in general.
I agree with you that telling someone with mental illness that it is their fault is wrong.
I don't know what was happening to your mother. Like I said, I am sorry about what happened to your mother, It is indeed sad.
I'm very opinionated on the subject, also, but it's because I have had numerous run-ins with the kinds of thing I described.
Also, "opressed with demons" doesn't mean teh same thing as "possessed by demons". I think we are all oppressed by demons to some extent. To me, being oppressed by demons means they are putting crazy thoughts in your head, telling you to do things you don't want to do (that's a common, every day occurrence - it's called temptation, and is a sign of the spiritual warfare going on all around us all day, all night). "Being possessed by demons" means they take over your spirit. I don't believe Christians can be possessed by demons, because the Bible makes it clear that when you become a Christian, Christ' spirit takes over and you are a new creation. So, how can a demon take over when Christ is already there? The Bible says that darkness and light cannot abide together.
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Old 03-14-2002, 11:43 AM   #21
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
But a woman drowns her five children, including one she had to chase around the house? Well, she MUST be insane, so let's not punish her.
*snip*
(Very odd: you concieve, and you can kill it. Let it be born, and you must take care of it. You don't feed it properly, beat the child, or don't send it to school, and you should be tried for child abuse. BUT if you MURDER the child, God forbid a court of law convict you of murder.)
bubba, you rawk.
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Old 03-14-2002, 12:56 PM   #22
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by popkidu2:
[B]db9 I would've expected a more intelligent comment than "let her fry" from you.

mother to methodically drown her five children..


Popkid-
Wasnt intending to offend.
Lets not forget who the real victims are here. Mrs Yates is NOT A VICTIM.
Before she even drowned the first child she was 'banking' on sympathy like this.
Your perspective may change after you have little ones of your own.
Again, not intending to offend.
Your Friend-
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let her fry.

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Old 03-14-2002, 04:36 PM   #23
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andrea yates is a victim--- of mental illness. unfortunately, she is not the only victim. her mental illness has immediately taken six lives, not to mention the rest of her family who will be living with the fallout of her illness for the rest oif their lives. spending the rest of her life in a phychiatric institution, in my opinion, is not getting off scott free. call me naive, but i find it very hard to believe that a sane mother would premeditate the murder of her five children, make no effort to conceal the deed, turn herself in, all the while "banking" on the sympathy/insanity bit to get her off.

diamond,no feud intended here, but i wasn't aware that andrea yate's behavior was the standard that we should be holding ourselves to.

[This message has been edited by hotasahandbag (edited 03-14-2002).]
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Old 03-14-2002, 04:50 PM   #24
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I have suffered from post partum depression...and mine was the relatively light 'baby blues'. Intrusive bad thoughts would enter my mind...I would squash them down only to have another one invade. It was awful. It only lasted a week...I can't imagine what someone with full blown depression goes through And a warning to all you future moms out there...it is normal! So if it happens to you don't think you are a bad mom or anything...it just means your hormone level dropped too quickly. However if it lasts for more than two weeks...GET HELP!!!

The fact that Andrea Yates called the Police bothered me as well...but from what I understand..you can go in and out of madness. It isn't always a thing of when you go there...you stay there. There can be moments of lucidity where reason shines through if only briefly.
Or it could be (going back to the relgious angle) she thought in her state that she had obeyed God's laws...and so she would trust God to take care of her when it came to temporal laws....or she didn't care what happened to her physically...she had done what she was supposed to on a spirtual plane.
I hope that doesn't sound like some kind of religious doublespeak...I am trying to make a point here and hope it gets through...I'm sure some of you will understand what I'm trying to say here...
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Old 03-14-2002, 04:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
About Andrea Yates, I think that she was maybe possessed. But she may have gone insane. However, in my mind, that doesn't lessen what punishment she should receive - life in prison.
How ironic. Assuming she was possessed (which I doubt), that would make her not responsible for her actions. Yet, you still think that she should spend life in prison even if that were true.

The Yates case is one where I don't think there is such a thing as a "clear cut" response. The murders were wrong, yes, but the signs were there all along, and the husband just gets to go free and play off public sympathy. I'm guessing he was clearly one of those "uber-Christians," who likely demanded a lot from Andrea Yates. He wanted a big "Christian" family, so she was going to do it, like it or not. I have a feeling he spouted off that "women must be subordinate to husbands" passage from the epistles of St. Paul. The doctors tell her not to have any more children, but she kept on having them, probably on the demands of her husband. She lives in what has been described as a "bus" with five young children, all being home schooled by her, while the husband gets to run off to work and get away from it all. Her mental illness was also likely brushed off as her not having "enough faith," so she was just supposed to "pray and repent" to Jesus to "save" her. Yet, we are surprised now that Andrea Yates eventually killed her children, with all her documented and ignored instances of psychosis leading up to the murders?

I'm sorry. Maybe I empathize with her plight too much. I cannot remotely know what she was thinking, nor whether she was ultimately culpable for her actions. However, I have a feeling that if the jury was allowed to know that she would have ended up in a mental institution likely for the rest of her life on a verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity" (prohibited from being mentioned to the jury by the Texas Constitution, though), I have a feeling that the verdict may have been different.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 03-14-2002, 06:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
How ironic. Assuming she was possessed (which I doubt), that would make her not responsible for her actions. Yet, you still think that she should spend life in prison even if that were true.
The murders were wrong, yes, but the signs were there all along, and the husband just gets to go free and play off public sympathy. I'm sorry. However, I have a feeling that if the jury was allowed to know that she would have ended up in a mental institution likely for the rest of her life on a verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity" (prohibited from being mentioned to the jury by the Texas Constitution, though), I have a feeling that the verdict may have been different.
Melon
Every man is responsible for his own actions. If she were possessed by demons, that's sad. But she still murdered her 5 children. And I don't care if you lock her up in a prison or a mental hospital. The point to me is to get her away from society. Forever.

And yes, I agree. It's not right that the husband gets away scot free. I wrote that in an earlier post.


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 03-14-2002).]
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Old 03-15-2002, 08:58 AM   #27
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What an absolutely awful story.
Regardless of the outcome of the court case, the woman is guilty. The only grey area to my thinking is the level of sanity or insanity depending on your point of view. There are so many degrees of insanity, it can be hard to classify them. I dont see how anyone who can drown their 5 children can be considered sane. Whether it is tempory, or ongoing, it is not an act most people can engage while mentally and emotionally together. Unless they fit the rarer 2nd type of killer who kills as a result of insular reactions to their self.
The mind has its limits on what it can take, and I think she was a victim in the sense that she reached a higher a level of breaking point, an extremely acute version of the more regular stress that we all feel, but can usually either contain or overcome. The external factors contributing to her killing her children may well have been too intense for her mind to cope. Whether it was a build up, or a temporary moment, perhaps only a psychiatrist can decide. Regardless, it was too much for her to retain control of her faculties. It is not sane to murder anyone. I believe it is easy to decide on guilty or not guilty, you either did it or not. To argue that the insanity plea is a back door for her is something I dont agree with. I see her insanity as another fact. Fact: she is guilty, she did it. Fact: she was not in control of her mind when she did it. The law doesnt share my views on this, hence we can get 'not guilty by reason of insanity'. It would be nice to see a verdict of 'guilty; sentencing with ongoing treatment'. But I think someone already suggested this.
Still, a very sad case, whatever your views I think.
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Old 03-15-2002, 09:02 AM   #28
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Fry
the
wench.

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Old 03-15-2002, 12:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
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[She]poses no risk to the public.


Tell her kids that.
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Old 03-15-2002, 04:43 PM   #30
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They had the wrong foreman on that jury.
I demand recount.

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