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Old 04-19-2007, 07:50 PM   #76
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That sure doesn't fly in my workplace. Yeah, I lost a million dollars, we all know that, lets not talk about that now, it's in the past, let's just focus on the fact that we are a million dollars down and now we must all pull together here and stay the course and figure out how to make a million dollars.

Yes, thorough and open discussion about where to go from here, but also get to the bottom of how everyone got here and roll EVERY head that got this thing into this position. From the very top down. I'm amazed more haven't been held accountable, for what someone else perhaps correctly pointed out as what may well go down in history as the United States' single greatest foreign policy fuck up of all time.

Have you read Eternal Life in the Emerald City? Sure, one book is one book, but it doesn't differ from the general consensus out there through most things you read, regardless of whatever political slant they have, that 150% of the blame for this lies fair and square on the shoulders of the neo-cons. Only this book details it better (obviously) than any previous single articles I've read. They locked out anyone and everyone from planning and roles in post-initial invasion Iraq who didn't follow their politics and viewpoint perfectly. Even within Republican circles. That means if you worked for that evil State Dept, you were out. Even if you had decades of experience in the region and spoke fluent Arabic. You weren't as good a candidate as a 23yr old from the Pentagon with no experience, but understood Iraq as seen through the neo-con dream. You really should read the book if you haven't. It is very thorough. The fuck ups are just incredible and are entirely why the situation exists as it does today. Just an amazing chronicle of exactly how you can fuck everything up at every turn.

There really should have been a public outrage from all corners of political beliefs over it. No matter how justified or not you felt the initial act was, what happened afterwards was such a stunning failure, one due entirely to blinding arrogance mixed with stunning incompetence.

The thing is, if the US Government was a public company, with shareholders, and you had Bush/Cheney as the CEO/Vice, and they oversaw such a fuck up, they would have been booted out of there years ago, as would many others at the top. And I don't see what the difference is. You are a shareholder, you do have a financial stake. The only difference I see is that you also have a significant emotional stake. I think the more passionate a supporter of the war you are, the more you would have wanted to see people held accountable. I don't think that was/would be an anti-war, anti-President, anti-troop, leftie/liberal/whatever thing to do. I think if you truly believe in the cause, and truly wanted success, you would have turned on the "neo-cons" a long, long time ago.
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:50 PM   #77
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AEON, you and the members of the service are in my prayers. I hope you know that.
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:54 PM   #78
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However, the discussion of how we got there and why we got there really won't help us move forward - will it? I could be wrong, but I’ve never seen blame attached to an actual plan for success in any operation or exercise. It's like Project Management, at some point we all have to agree that things haven’t been working as planned – but we must come up with a new plan to succeed (that is assuming success is actually desired). Debating about how the project got messed up in the first place doesn’t usually help until AFTER the project is complete. Instead, you reassess, carry on, and make it happen. Root cause analysis ALWAYS follows resolution.

You would make a horrible project manager. You don't assess the project when it's "complete". In fact you would never get anything completed if you weren't assessing the situation as you go.
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:54 PM   #79
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
AEON, you and the members of the service are in my prayers. I hope you know that.
Thanks Dread - I know you are sincere and I agree with you more than I come across.

I also agree with Ernie's post above. I still don't see how this helps fix the current situation. However, it is important stuff to know so that the same mistakes are never repeated.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:00 PM   #80
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You would make a horrible project manager. You don't assess the project when it's "complete". In fact you would never get anything completed if you weren't assessing the situation as you go.
Please read my post again. I actually advocate assessment. However, blame and root-cause analysis usually do not happen in mid-project. And if it does, it is only for the purpose of integrating these things into the actual solution. My civilian job is IT Manager, which involved a heavy does of project management – which is why I used it as an example.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:02 PM   #81
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I also agree with Ernie's post above. I still don't see how this helps fix the current situation. However, it is important stuff to know so that the same mistakes are never repeated.
It helps because to move forward successfully, you might just need to have a look at management of the project, and if need be remove a few people who steered you down such a path of failure in such a stunningly arrogant and incompetent way that you believe they are unfit and unable to do the role succesfully. ie you don't trust that any shift in plan and ideas from them will work based on their previous attempts. To put it another way, I don't think you can look at the original plan and say "Well, who knew. Nice try, but let's look at a different angle." Again, if it were a public company, they would not only be fired but possibly face criminal charges. They wouldn't be getting 2nd and 3rd chances to get it right.

I completely agree that "getting it right" is the first and only priority now, but I don't see how "figuring out what went wrong and why" isn't a crucial part of that.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:07 PM   #82
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root-cause analysis usually do not happen in mid-project.
Any decent business class would tell you otherwise...
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:11 PM   #83
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Like continually replacing the hands on the clock, but never checking the battery.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:56 PM   #84
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I still don't understand how Bush was re-elected.

Kerry was like a talking piece of 2x4, sure, but to re-elect that buffoon....generations of humans will wonder abut America, honestly.

It's clear that the people in charge are completely unable to fix this situation, and worse yet, unwilling to consider other points of view. So how can you band together to find a solution when the guy in charge treats the rest of the world (including your Congress, your Constitution and well, the majority viewpoint of your nation) like they're his own personal toilet to shit all over. You can't talk here about some kind of compromise - it's not possible. The entire administration should be run out of town with pitchforks.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:59 PM   #85
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Rove was asked whose idea it was to start a pre-emptive war in Iraq.

'' I think it was Osama bin Laden's,'' Rove replied.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:02 PM   #86
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers
The thing is, if the US Government was a public company, with shareholders, and you had Bush/Cheney as the CEO/Vice, and they oversaw such a fuck up, they would have been booted out of there years ago, as would many others at the top. And I don't see what the difference is. You are a shareholder, you do have a financial stake. The only difference I see is that you also have a significant emotional stake. I think the more passionate a supporter of the war you are, the more you would have wanted to see people held accountable. I don't think that was/would be an anti-war, anti-President, anti-troop, leftie/liberal/whatever thing to do. I think if you truly believe in the cause, and truly wanted success, you would have turned on the "neo-cons" a long, long time ago.


this was an excellent post.

the only thing i have to add is that it's kind of impossible to express to a non-American just how dark and terrifying the 18 months following 9-11 were. and the administration knew this. and they squeezed that enormous tragedy for all it was worth.

yes, we fell for it (some of us ... and some of us are still drinking from the Kool-Aid), but up through the beginning of 2004, i am much more sympthetic to people who thought Bush was trying to attack the "root causes" of terrorism -- lack of democracy -- and that the manufacturing of democracy in a middle eastern country was not just a solution, but actaully feasible.

sadly, the man turned out to be as deep as spit on a hot sidewalk in the summer, and twice as stupid.

and i especially agree with your last sentence, and it is a point i've made over and over.

if you actually believed success in Iraq was possible, you'd have known that these fucktards were precisely the wrong people to go about it.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:10 PM   #87
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FDR and JFK were for all practical purposes "neocons" - so you may want to reconsider how throw you the term around.

Traditional Republicans are more isolationists - like Pat Buchanan.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:13 PM   #88
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FDR and JFK were for all practical purposes "neocons" -
How do you figure?
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:18 PM   #89
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Iraqis working it out for themselves is the best option.
Well, working it out with the Saudi's, Syrians and Iranians too of course. My guess is Iran would be first in when we leave, maybe not overtly, but will be there for the grab.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:19 PM   #90
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Well, working it out with the Saudi's, Syrians and Iranians too of course. My guess is Iran would be first in when we leave, maybe not overtly, but will be there for the grab.


Iran is already there.
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