And the chaos continues...day of death in Baghdad - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-19-2007, 02:50 PM   #46
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


That is the million dollar question. And that is what both parties need to agree on. Once we have that, so many other things will fall into place.

Hello Aeon,

I hope you are well.

I have not read all of this thread
since my last post

but, I will add,

that even though "we broke it" as Colin Powell has said

we can only own it for so long.


and after many, many efforts have been made, different plans rolled out, the only option may: to slowly disengage

I also understand that it may seem that there are some that do not want the Administration to walk away with a "success' or win in Iraq


I also understand that it may seem that there are some that disparately do not want the Administration to have a "failure" or loss in Iraq


I think allowing either side's political concerns to drive the debate and influence the decisions is very dangerous for all parties involved.
__________________

__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 02:51 PM   #47
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


This is where your ethnocentric viewpoint shows.

Victory to YOU means what your American parties want. Victory to various factions in Iraq means something else. Victory can legitimately mean to these people that they have a Shia state friendly to Iran. But of course that is contrary to your idea of victory.

Which is why there is no such thing, regardless of what the Dems and Reps "agree" on. It's not your country, it's theirs.
So what does my anglo-germanic ethnicity have to do with this?

And please offer your definition of victory.
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 02:59 PM   #48
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


And please offer your definition of victory.
Victory (by the Administration's definition)

is not the only option.


Iraqis working it out for themselves is the best option.

And yes it will be ugly and there will be much more death.

At the end of the day, this is what is going to happen. Why should we spill more blood, and hundreds of billions of dollars for 3-5 more years when it is inevitable.


I am beginning to think the only reason we are still there, paying this heavy price, is because we are hoping to get a better place at the table when the caucus is picked over.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:03 PM   #49
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

And please offer your definition of victory.
The definition of victory depends on whose perspective you are considering. What does it matter what my definition is if it's contrary to the definition of the various factions of Iraqis on the ground.

If you define victory from an American perspective (and not the local perspective, which may differ), then your only solution is to stay there forever and beat them (literally) into submission. Because so long as their idea of victory is not the same as yours, you can only compel them into "defeat" by force.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:11 PM   #50
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Victory (by the Administration's definition)

is not the only option.


Iraqis working it out for themselves is the best option.

And yes it will be ugly and there will be much more death.

At the end of the day, this is what is going to happen. Why should we spill more blood, and hundreds of billions of dollars for 3-5 more years when it is inevitable.


I am beginning to think the only reason we are still there, paying this heavy price, is because we are hoping to get a better place at the table when the caucus is picked over.
You think we should pull out tomorrow? Phased? 6 months? 12 months? Or a few years?

You do know that just about everyone agrees that if we were to pullout now, the only blood that would be spared is American blood, correct? I only say this because you said "why should we spill more blood" - because if we were to leave today, the Iraqi bloodshed would be enormous.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:14 PM   #51
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


The definition of victory depends on whose perspective you are considering. What does it matter what my definition is if it's contrary to the definition of the various factions of Iraqis on the ground.

If you define victory from an American perspective (and not the local perspective, which may differ), then your only solution is to stay there forever and beat them (literally) into submission. Because so long as their idea of victory is not the same as yours, you can only compel them into "defeat" by force.
What do you think most Iraqis want? Safety, security, raise a family, live without fear of a tyrant...etc.? From my understanding of the Iraqi population, they are well educated (by Middle Eastern standards), secular, and enterprising. It seems a Western-style system would be a perfect fit for them.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:21 PM   #52
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:38 AM
I think it should not be an immediate pull out.

It should be a phase out

over some time.

That way other regional parties could get more involved, with the willingness of the Iraqi people, of course.

and yes I think it will be messy.

I think that those that want to do mayhem in Iraq know there is a time limit to our involvement.

I believe once the U S is not the dominate controlling force in Iraq, the violence will subside quite a bit.

I also believe that those doing all the mayhem will get less support from the ordinary people.

Our staying power is limited. Everybody knows this.

What is the danger making it public.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:42 PM   #53
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


What do you think most Iraqis want? Safety, security, raise a family, live without fear of a tyrant...etc.? From my understanding of the Iraqi population, they are well educated (by Middle Eastern standards), secular, and enterprising. It seems a Western-style system would be a perfect fit for them.
And what about the ones who genuinely want a Shia state, and a Shia leader and friendly relations with Iran.

Or the Kurds who genuinely want their own state, free of Turkish influence and apart from the rest of Iraq?

That is not a perfect fit for you, now is it?
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:56 PM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


And what about the ones who genuinely want a Shia state, and a Shia leader and friendly relations with Iran.

Or the Kurds who genuinely want their own state, free of Turkish influence and apart from the rest of Iraq?

That is not a perfect fit for you, now is it?
I'm not automatically opposed to three independent, democratic states. I believe this would hurt the Kurds and Sunnis because of losing oil revenue, but that is for them to choose.

Is this what these groups actually want?
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:57 PM   #55
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:38 AM
the purple thumbed election was about people going to the polls and choosing their group

the so-called 'secular group' did very poorly


it was people identifying as Shia, Sunni or Kurd mostly

and in these groups is where the power lies


sadly this liberation did more to divide Iraqis and make their State less secular, and even less "Western".
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 03:59 PM   #56
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON





Is this what these groups actually want?
absolutely it is what the Kurds and Shia want

the Kurds will claim Kirkuk with its oil
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 04:31 PM   #57
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


- because if we were to leave today, the Iraqi bloodshed would be enormous.
Really? Do you think it would get worse? Stay the same? Or would their main target be gone?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-19-2007, 04:49 PM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Really? Do you think it would get worse? Stay the same? Or would their main target be gone?
Right now it seems that the main target is the civilian population and not US troops. I think it would definitely get worse for the Iraqi civilians in our absence. An all out civil war without any worry of US gunships, aircraft, tanks...etc., would make the marketplace bombings seems like kids setting off firecrackers. I fear it would get much, much uglier than it is today.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 04-19-2007, 04:53 PM   #59
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Right now it seems that the main target is the civilian population and not US troops. I think it would definitely get worse for the Iraqi civilians in our absence. An all out civil war without any worry of US gunships, aircraft, tanks...etc., would make the marketplace bombings seems like kids setting off firecrackers. I fear it would get much, much uglier than it is today.
How much were they bombing before we got there?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-19-2007, 06:04 PM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


How much were they bombing before we got there?
That's not the issue on the table. The issue on the table is what would happen if the US military left right now. And I think it is safe to say the Iraqi civilians will face brutal acts of terror far worse than they are currently experiencing. The chaos would become genocide.
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com