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Old 04-19-2007, 09:29 AM   #31
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Originally posted by yolland

I don't see where you're getting glee over the present violence out of that--it's not your place to tell people that it's immoral for them to see it as having been damningly avoidable.
There are several regular posters here who only post tragic news when it comes to Iraq. And when they are confronted with hopeful news - they attack it. What else am I to conclude?

Concerning the idea that it is not my place to post a moral judgment - isn't that what I read in every thread? Moral judgments? If it is true that some people truly are rooting for the US to fail in Iraq - I see no reason why I can't call out such an opinion as morally wrong.

I think I have shared opinions about Iraq that are both critical and supportive of the commanders and the administration. I do not equate dissent with disloyalty. Nevertheless, there are many people out there that certainly seem to actually desire failure in Iraq because peace in Iraq would mean a victory for Bush and the Republicans...and they certainly can't have that.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:41 AM   #32
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Maybe you are confusing seeing failure and wishing it to stop with desiring failure. Just a thought. You certainly would be in my case.

I want peace there and I don't give a damn if GWB creates it and it's a victory for him. If he did I would be shouting my support of him from the nearest rooftop. I want the dying to stop as much as I have ever wanted anything else in my life.
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:46 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Concerning the idea that it is not my place to post a moral judgment - isn't that what I read in every thread? Moral judgments? If it is true that some people truly are rooting for the US to fail in Iraq - I see no reason why I can't call out such an opinion as morally wrong.
Fair enough; let me rephrase. Insinuating that anyone else delights in the thought of 150 innocent civilians being blown to smithereens because the thrill of seeing the Administration's approach called into question trumps all else in their value system is highly inflammatory, and only likely to impair calm evaluation of the pros and cons of what-nexts (as for example A_W keeps trying to do). I don't see anyone implying that you delight in violence against civilians because it could be used to make a case against withdrawal.
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:20 AM   #34
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Originally posted by yolland

Fair enough; let me rephrase. Insinuating that anyone else delights in the thought of 150 innocent civilians being blown to smithereens because the thrill of seeing the Administration's approach called into question trumps all else in their value system is highly inflammatory, and only likely to impair calm evaluation of the pros and cons of what-nexts (as for example A_W keeps trying to do). I don't see anyone implying that you delight in violence against civilians because it could be used to make a case against withdrawal.
I see your point. And the answer to all of this is somewhere between "No War on Iraq" bumper stickers and total, unending war.

I don't know anyone in the military that wants to stay in Iraq ONE DAY longer than necessary. We must all sit down and define what victory actually is with some quantitative milestones – then do whatever takes to achieve that objective. After that, we must move on and prepare for the next challenge. If the world thinks America was defeated in Iraq – it would be devastating to our future negotiating ability. Simply put, losing in Iraq would equate to more war and more American losses in the future because our strength will not be respected enough to actually prevent future conflicts.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are here and underway. The blame game on how we got here does no good at this point. Let history decide that. What we do from here on out is critical to what the world will look like for the next generation. Pulling out every last American troop tomorrow is simply not an option. Agreeing on what “victory” is, achieving it, and then preparing for the next international crises is something that both the Liberal and Conservatives can and should agree on.

In the future, we must ask other countries to share more of the economic and military burden in international affairs. If they are unwilling, then I believe that we must become more and more “self-reliant.”
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:22 AM   #35
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I want the dying to stop as much as I have ever wanted anything else in my life.
We certainly agree on this.
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:30 AM   #36
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We certainly agree on this.
Everybody agrees on this, and your accusations of posters here are sickening.
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:35 AM   #37
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^ That's been addressed now, let's let it go and move on.
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:45 AM   #38
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Originally posted by AEON
If the world thinks America was defeated in Iraq – it would be devastating to our future negotiating ability.
Newsflash: the world already thinks that. Most of us are scratching our heads as to why you're there at all and figure you've already lost whatever objective you had (aside from the obvious removal of Saddam) and are just waiting to somehow reframe it so that it doesn't sound like a defeat. Kind of like declaring victory in Vietnam and then getting the hell out of there.

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In the future, we must ask other countries to share more of the economic and military burden in international affairs. If they are unwilling, then I believe that we must become more and more “self-reliant.”
Well maybe if it was a legitimate international affair and not some insane pursuit of your own self-interests built on complete fallacy. Why should we die for George Bush's cause? Most of the world didn't buy his "evidence" and turns out they were right.
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Old 04-19-2007, 10:59 AM   #39
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America's international credibility will be restored with a new administration.

even a Bush supporter must realize this now.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:18 PM   #40
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America's international credibility will be restored with a new administration.

even a Bush supporter must realize this now.
Depends on the administration and what is taking place in the world at the time.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:26 PM   #41
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Depends on the administration and what is taking place in the world at the time.


George Bush doesn't have the credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world, and most of the United States, to replace a lightbulb.

*any* current senator or governor would be seen as an improvement.
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:46 PM   #42
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George Bush doesn't have the credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world, and most of the United States, to replace a lightbulb.

*any* current senator or governor would be seen as an improvement.
I agree on the improvement part. However, a new leader backed by a military that recently protected two fledgling democracies in the tough Middle East would give the US the credibility that is necessary to gather international support against regimes like those in Iran and North Korea.

If the new President is a master diplomat and has a battle tested, victorious military in his/her back pocket - then we will not only restore our credibility, but actually have more than when this whole mess started.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:08 PM   #43
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I agree on the improvement part. However, a new leader backed by a military that recently protected two fledgling democracies in the tough Middle East would give the US the credibility that is necessary to gather international support against regimes like those in Iran and North Korea.



but hasn't this whole fiasco just emboldened precisely these countries? wasn't that what the Axis of Evil was all about? wasn't Iraq supposed to be a warning to Iran and NoKo? weren't we supposed to be in and out within a year or so with some "shock and awe" that would knock out the government -- indeed, any government -- that would serve as ample warning to the regimes in Tehran and Pyongyang?

clearly, we've been proven wrong. and i'm not sure how to undo the damage that has been done.


Quote:
If the new President is a master diplomat and has a battle tested, victorious military in his/her back pocket - then we will not only restore our credibility, but actually have more than when this whole mess started.
what does "victory" look like?
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:21 PM   #44
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what does "victory" look like?
That is the million dollar question. And that is what both parties need to agree on. Once we have that, so many other things will fall into place.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:29 PM   #45
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That is the million dollar question. And that is what both parties need to agree on. Once we have that, so many other things will fall into place.
This is where your ethnocentric viewpoint shows.

Victory to YOU means what your American parties want. Victory to various factions in Iraq means something else. Victory can legitimately mean to these people that they have a Shia state friendly to Iran. But of course that is contrary to your idea of victory.

Which is why there is no such thing, regardless of what the Dems and Reps "agree" on. It's not your country, it's theirs.
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