And the chaos continues...day of death in Baghdad - Page 17 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-27-2007, 07:47 PM   #241
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,234
Local Time: 07:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


Its rather disappointing to see someone almost completely dodge the issue of what to do about the area of greatest Al Quada activity
It is equally as disappointing to see someone who is incapable of admitting that we created the current area of greatest Al Qaeda activity. We turned the area into the perfect place for Al Qaeda to infest. We bungled the occupation and in doing so allowed radical Islamics groups (Al Qaeda is just one of many) the freedom to operate in an area once DEVOID of radical Islamic groups.

And by we, I mean the current US administration.
__________________

__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 04-27-2007, 07:55 PM   #242
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Actually AQ staying in Iraq isn't a problem, all those young men going back home to the Gulf States and then onto the world with know-how of how to make bombs and a powerful will to do so is.
Al Quada staying in Iraq after a pre-mature coalition withdrawal would be a huge problem. Al Quada would have the safe haven they had been looking for since they lost their HQ in Afghanistan. By some estimates Al Quada trained over 60,000 fighters while they had their safe haven in Afghanistan in the 1990s. Abandoning Iraq now would provide Al Quada with a new base and the means to train and facilitate a larger number of terrorist operations worldwide.
__________________

__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-27-2007, 08:06 PM   #243
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 PM
Not if a those training camps were being bombed whenever they sprang up; Iraq will not end up like Afghanistan. there are too many interested parties.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-27-2007, 08:06 PM   #244
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


It is equally as disappointing to see someone who is incapable of admitting that we created the current area of greatest Al Qaeda activity. We turned the area into the perfect place for Al Qaeda to infest. We bungled the occupation and in doing so allowed radical Islamics groups (Al Qaeda is just one of many) the freedom to operate in an area once DEVOID of radical Islamic groups.

And by we, I mean the current US administration.
The United States had to remove Saddam despite the cost involved in doing so. I agree that the United States made many mistakes early on in the occupation that has made it much more difficult to develop an Iraqi government and military that can survive on its own. I also agree that US mistakes have contributed to Al Quada's ability to operate in Iraq. But none of these mistakes change the necessity of removing Saddam from power or the need to remain in Iraq to develop a government and military than can handle its own internal security situation. A far worse mistake would be for the United States to abandon Iraq to Sunni insurgents and Al Quada as Democrats support doing with a March 2008 withdrawal date for all US combat forces in Iraq.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-27-2007, 08:11 PM   #245
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 PM
But demographically Sunni groups will not be able to function and make war against a Shiite majority that has no cause for restraint; the aim was to spark holy war against a heretical sect (as outlined repeatedly by al Zarqawi) and it seems to have succeeded; the fact that the Sunni tribes are rejecting insurgency and foreign jihadists is a sign that they will need protection.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-27-2007, 08:19 PM   #246
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Not if a those training camps were being bombed whenever they sprang up; Iraq will not end up like Afghanistan. there are too many interested parties.
Simply bombing Afghanistan was never a solution to Al Qauda's position there, nor will it be in Iraq. Pakistan and Iran certainly did not support Al Quada setting up shop in Afghanistan, but they were powerless to prevent it. The ability of Iraq's neighbors to influence the situation on the ground in Iraq is limited by a variety of factors. Abandoning the area of greatest Al Quada activity to what amount to half measures is not the best way to defeat Al Quada there and is certainly not the way the United States and coalition have gone about combating Al Quada in Afghanistan. The only sure way to defeat Al Quada and keep them from coming back signicantly in both country's is to develop the government and military forces of both country's to a level where they can provide for their own internal security.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-27-2007, 08:41 PM   #247
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But demographically Sunni groups will not be able to function and make war against a Shiite majority that has no cause for restraint; the aim was to spark holy war against a heretical sect (as outlined repeatedly by al Zarqawi) and it seems to have succeeded; the fact that the Sunni tribes are rejecting insurgency and foreign jihadists is a sign that they will need protection.
Sunni insurgents are much better trained and have large numbers of ex-Republican Guard members than Shia militia's. The huge disparity in casualties suffered by Sunni insurgent groups fighting the US military and Shia militia groups fighting the US military demonstrates this. US military personal involved in fighting both groups report that the Sunni's understand basic military tactics, how to build bombs, etc, while most shia while fanatical, don't really have a clue about how to shoot or fight. Indeed, in the US military's largest engagements against Sunni insurgents and Shia militia's in 2004, the Shia would often suffer 300+ killed per day while the Sunni figure would be in the dozens. The Shia militia's have fanaticism and numbers, but the Sunni insurgents have more experience, intelligence, equipment and other war fighting capabilities. Nearly all IED's in Iraq, and all major bombings are conducted by Sunni insurgents and Al Quada. Successful violent Shia militia actions typically consist of torturing and shooting unarmed civilians, not exactly an example of military prowess.

As a matter of fact retired General Barry Mccaffrey said a year or two ago that a pre-mature US military pullout would lead to a Sunni take over of the country again, and even potentially Saddam or members of his regime coming back to power. I think that overstates their strength, but it would be a mistake to simply judge their strength on the demographics. More importantly, there are just as many divisions among the Shia as there are among Sunni groups if not more.

Rather than let Sunni insurgents, or Shia militia groups try and control the country, far better to develop a government and military that will unite the country and isolate the extremist in both camps.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-27-2007, 09:28 PM   #248
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 PM
Those actions while not militarily significant or dangerous to foreign forces is the basic means to carry out ethnic cleansing. Without foreign forces in place and in the absence of an ethnically diverse government for all the people I doubt there will be any force to stop a larger campaign. The depopulation of the middle class to surrounding countries is the first stage.

By "winning" against Sunni insurgents you are leaving those populations defenceless in the future; unless all sides can coexist then military victory could set the stage for slaughter when you leave.

I don't support the nihilistic fascists that the represent the Sunni insurgency but if you cast a blind eye to the equally fundamentalist and violent Shiite factions you may just end up doing their bidding.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 05-01-2007, 05:15 PM   #249
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 05:58 AM
Why are we paying Billions of U S tax payer dollars and U S blood for giving the Iranians what they never could have achieved on their own?

We should just turn this over to Iran?

Let them pay for it
It is their agenda.

Quote:
Shadowy Iraq office accused of sectarian agenda


BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's prime minister has created an entity within his government that U.S. and Iraqi military officials say is being used as a smokescreen to hide an extreme Shiite agenda that is worsening the country's sectarian divide.

The Office of the Commander in Chief has the power to overrule other government ministries, according to U.S. military and intelligence sources.

Those sources say the 24-member office is abusing its power, increasingly overriding decisions made by the Iraqi Ministries of Defense and Interior and potentially undermining the entire U.S. effort in Iraq.

The Office, as it is known in Baghdad, was set up about four months ago with the knowledge of American forces in Iraq. Its goal is ostensibly to advise Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki -- the nation's new commander in chief -- on military matters.

According to a U.S. intelligence source, the Office is "ensuring the emplacement of commanders it favors and can control, regardless of what the ministries want."

Ali Dabbagh, spokesman for the Iraqi government, would not respond directly to questions about what authority the Office exercises within the Iraqi government. He denied allegations that the prime minister's advisers were trying to push a Shiite agenda.

However, a senior Iraqi army officer disagreed. The officer, who is seeking help from the senior U.S. command, said: "The Office is not supposed to be taking charge like this. It's overstepping its role as an advisory office. It's not a healthy thing to have. It's people with no power who want to have power."

A senior U.S. military official cited several cases in Baghdad in which Iraqi commanders considered capable by the United States were detained or forced out of their positions after cracking down on Shiite militias.

Among the cases, an Iraqi colonel in Baghdad, who had made strides in controlling the Shiite Mehdi militia, was removed from his job, the U.S. military official said.

The official also cited the case of an Iraqi National Police commander who was detained and then fired after ordering his men to crack down on Shiite militiamen. The same source said the Office is working to reinstate Iraqi officers the United States had successfully removed because the officers were frequently casting a blind eye to violence carried out by Shiite militiamen.

Every senior U.S. and Iraqi military official who spoke to CNN in Baghdad about the advisers asked not to be named due to the sensitive nature of the story and potential political or personal backlash.

A White House official confirmed that the U.S. government does have specific concerns about the Office, adding: "We are working with them on their command-and-control issues to make sure it works properly and so that commanders are put into their jobs for the right reasons and not just sectarian reasons."

White House spokesman Tony Snow on Monday said the administration was "concerned" about stories that the Iraqi government was trying to execute the Baghdad security plan along sectarian lines.

"It is vital for the success of an Iraqi democracy to have security forces that will enforce the law fairly, regardless of who you are or regardless of what group you belong to," Snow sai
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 05-01-2007, 08:11 PM   #250
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:58 PM
Having your cake and eating it too for "Mission Accompished" (OIF)
Quote:
The military mission has long since been accomplished. The failure has been political. It has been policy. It has been presidential ~ Harry Reid
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 05-01-2007, 09:18 PM   #251
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 05:58 AM
Can anyone please tell me how this whole Iraq situation could not have gone any better for Iran?

Seriously, it is like everything was done from a standpoint of:

What would Iran like us to do for them?
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 05-01-2007, 09:30 PM   #252
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,471
Local Time: 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Can anyone please tell me how this whole Iraq situation could not have gone any better for Iran?

Seriously, it is like everything was done from a standpoint of:

What would Iran like us to do for them?


but don't you see?

it doesn't matter if we have a Shiite theocracy. the only thing that matters -- the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS AND THAT EVER WILL MATTER -- is that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 05-01-2007, 09:33 PM   #253
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 05:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS AND THAT EVER WILL MATTER -- is that Saddam Hussein is no longer in power.
at the very top of

the Iranian wish list.

And did we even get a thank you card.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 05-02-2007, 10:38 PM   #254
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
trevster2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,330
Local Time: 10:28 AM
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/0...-accomplished/

A look back. Hmm, no mention of Iran though.
__________________
trevster2k is offline  
Old 05-05-2007, 09:12 PM   #255
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that there are those who can stand in solidarity with Iraqis and oppose both the Bush agenda and the terrorists; sadly it seems that most fall into opposing one and being essentially silent on the other.
No, I think the people who oppose Bush also oppose the terrorists who attacked Americans on 9/11. I think the people who oppose Bush on Iraq fully support the war in Afghanistan. I think the people who oppose Bush want to send even more troops into Afghanistan and also parts of Pakistan to find, capture and kill the terrorists who attacked Americans.
__________________

__________________
Infinity is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com