And the chaos continues...day of death in Baghdad - Page 12 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-22-2007, 06:07 PM   #166
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[q]Training Iraqi troops no longer driving force in U.S. policy
By Nancy A. Youssef
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Military planners have abandoned the idea that standing up Iraqi troops will enable American soldiers to start coming home soon and now believe that U.S. troops will have to defeat the insurgents and secure control of troubled provinces.

Training Iraqi troops, which had been the cornerstone of the Bush administration's Iraq policy since 2005, has dropped in priority, officials in Baghdad and Washington said.

No change has been announced, and a Pentagon spokesman, Col. Gary Keck, said training Iraqis remains important. "We are just adding another leg to our mission," Keck said, referring to the greater U.S. role in establishing security that new troops arriving in Iraq will undertake.

But evidence has been building for months that training Iraqi troops is no longer the focus of U.S. policy. Pentagon officials said they know of no new training resources that have been included in U.S. plans to dispatch 28,000 additional troops to Iraq. The officials spoke only on the condition of anonymity because they aren't authorized to discuss the policy shift publicly. Defense Secretary Robert Gates made no public mention of training Iraqi troops on Thursday during a visit to Iraq.

In a reflection of the need for more U.S. troops, the Pentagon decided earlier this month to increase the length of U.S. Army tours in Iraq from 12 to 15 months. The extension came amid speculation that the U.S. commander there, Army Gen. David Petraeus, will ask that the troop increase be maintained well into 2008.

U.S. officials don't say that the training formula - championed by Gen. John Abizaid when he was the commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East and by Gen. George Casey when he was the top U.S. general in Iraq - was doomed from the start. But they said that rising sectarian violence and the inability of Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki to unite the country changed the conditions. They say they now must establish security while training Iraqi forces because ultimately, "they are our ticket out of Iraq," as one senior Pentagon official put it.

Casey's "mandate was transition. General Petraeus' mandate is security. It is a change based on conditions. Certain conditions have to be met for the transition to be successful. Security is part of that. And General Petraeus recognizes that," said Brig. Gen. Dana Pittard, commander of the Iraq Assistance Group in charge of supporting trained Iraqi forces.

"I think it is too much to expect that we were going to start from scratch ... in an environment that featured a rising sectarian struggle and lack of progress with the government," said a senior Pentagon official. "The conditions had sufficiently changed that the Abizaid/Casey approach alone wasn't going to be sufficient."

Lt. Gen. Martin Dempsey, who's in charge of training Iraqi troops, said in February that he hoped that Iraqi troops would be able to lead by December. "At the tactical level, I do believe by the end of the year, the conditions should be set that they are increasingly taking responsibility for the combat operations," Dempsey told NBC News.

Maj. Gen. Doug Lute, the director of operations at U.S. Central Command, which oversees military activities in the Middle East, said that during the troop increase, U.S. officers will be trying to determine how ready Iraqi forces are to assume control.

"We are looking for indicators where we can assess the extent to which we are fighting alongside Iraqi security forces, not as a replacement to them," he said. Those signs will include "things like the number of U.S.-only missions, the number of combined U.S.-Iraqi missions, the number where Iraqis are in the lead, the number of Joint Security Stations set up," he said.

That's a far cry from the optimistic assessments U.S. commanders offered throughout 2006 about the impact of training Iraqis.

President Bush first announced the training strategy in the summer of 2005.

"Our strategy can be summed up this way," Bush said. "As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down."

Military leaders in Baghdad planned to train 325,000 Iraqi security forces. Once that was accomplished, those forces were to take control. Casey created military transition teams that would live side by side with their Iraqi counterparts to help them apply their training to real-world situations.

Throughout 2006, Casey and top Bush administration leaders touted the training as a success, asserting that eight of Iraq's 10 divisions had taken the lead in confronting insurgents.

But U.S. forces complained that the Iraqi forces weren't getting the support from their government and that Iraqi military commanders, many who worked under Saddam Hussein, weren't as willing to embrace their tactics. Among everyday Iraqis, some said they didn't trust their forces, saying they were sectarian and easily susceptible to corruption.

Most important, insurgents and militiamen had infiltrated the forces, using their power to carry out sectarian attacks.

In nearly every area where Iraqi forces were given control, the security situation rapidly deteriorated. The exceptions were areas dominated largely by one sect and policed by members of that sect.
[/q]



The United States has not stopped training Iraqi troops or the policies that Abazaid and Casey had under way for Iraqi troops. The brigades being added in Iraq under the surge were to provide extra combat power on the ground in Baghdad, not to train Iraqi troops although there will be US troops imbedded with Iraqi units in the field, which is in a way related to the training process.

Most of the sectarian problems involve the Police and other non-military security forces, NOT the military itself which has actually proven to one of the parts of the government that is least divided along ethnic lines. Training the Iraqi military is going to take at least another 4 years and the article above is essentially making a story where one does not exist.
__________________

__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 06:25 PM   #167
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 08:53 PM
But thats all relative isn''t it, an organisation that refuses to actively stop death squards from it's ethnic faction is a step apart from an organisation that is actively involved in said death squads.

What held Iraq together under Saddam wasn't the military (it was in shambles), it was the secret police. Without the monstrosity of the Mukhabarat the fear that kept the society in opressive order is gone. What can fill that void without being a tool for the Shiite factions?
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:16 PM   #168
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
[B]

Well, if that was the case, LBJ would have ran for re-election.

you could not have possibly imagined just how well you've proved my point about decontextualizing facts from their historic circumstance.

that was *amazing.*

thank you. we can all learn from this.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:16 PM   #169
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
The United States has removed one of the worst regimes in the world, the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, responsible for giving Al Quada a safe Haven from where they trained and organized their terror operations around the world.
Yes, and in return for that good deed, we balanced it out by turning another country into a veritable breeding ground for Al Qaeda and other Islamic militant groups. Hooray!


Quote:
Seldom has there been a better case in history for the regime change.
If all you do is concentrate on Saddam and his removal, sure. When you include the reality of how we've royally screwed up everything after removing him from power, things don't look quite so rosy.

Oh, and lets try and not make it look like human rights violations had ANYTHING to do with why we took Saddam out. Because if that were the case, we would have come running to the rescue in Darfur. And we'd put some ultimatums to Saudi Arabia's regime to clean up their human rights record. But we barely lifted a finger for Darfur, and have pretty much turned a blind eye to the Saudis.
__________________
Diemen is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:20 PM   #170
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 08:53 PM
^ Two things put forward by the hate filled "neo-cons".
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:22 PM   #171
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
^ Two things put forward by the hate filled "neo-cons".


and neither of the two things were the real reasons why we went in there -- as evidenced in the well-documented feelings of betrayal as evidenced in numerous interviews and articles written by Perle, et al.

as we've learned, it was always and only ever about the oil. everything else lived in a grab bag of justifications.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:24 PM   #172
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 11:53 AM
AEON, just on your comments about the United States being the worlds last hope or whatever, and about George Bush as a leader, can I ask a personal question: How much time have you spent outside the USA?
__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:28 PM   #173
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Earnie Shavers
AEON, just on your comments about the United States being the worlds last hope or whatever, and about George Bush as a leader, can I ask a personal question: How much time have you spent outside the USA?
Well, long enough to know that the rest of us live in oppressive, tyrannical, terrible circumstances and we're waiting to be rescued by the last, great hope.

So, probably a weekend at EuroDisney?
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:41 PM   #174
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 11:53 AM


Help us!
We even have oil... a tiny, long-chained bit.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 07:44 PM   #175
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
trevster2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,330
Local Time: 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Help us!
We even have oil... a tiny, long-chained bit.
__________________
trevster2k is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:14 PM   #176
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:53 AM
What is the U S plan?

Try everything and anything -
and maybe we will (or won't) guess the right answer?

just keep those no bid contracts coming

and "no loss" during W's term.

Quote:
US security barrier angers Baghdad Sunni residents
(AFP)

21 April 2007


BAGHDAD - Residents of a dangerous Baghdad district on Saturday accused US forces walling them in behind a five-kilometre (three-mile) security barrier of hardening the city’s already bitter sectarian divisions.

On April 10, US paratroopers began hauling six-tonne (14,000-pound) sections of concrete wall into place around the Sunni district of Adhamiyah, one of the minority community’s last enclaves in Shiite east Baghdad.

The wall is designed to prevent Shiite death squads from launching attacks to drive out the Sunnis, and to prevent Sunni insurgents from using the pocket as a base for raids and bombing runs into Shiite areas.

Eleven days after the project began, the highway dividing Adhamiyah from its Shiite neighbours is lined with tall concrete barriers. A US military statement issued on Tuesday said troops would work nightly until it is completed.

“The idea is to curb some of the self-sustaining violence by controlling who has access to the neighbourhoods,” said Captain Marc Sanborn, a military engineer from the 82nd Airborne Division, according to the US statement.

The area is to become what the US military called a “gated community” protected by barriers and checkpoints manned by Iraqi troops.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:33 PM   #177
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


Yes, and in return for that good deed, we balanced it out by turning another country into a veritable breeding ground for Al Qaeda and other Islamic militant groups. Hooray!




and notice how, when good things happen, it was done by "The United States;" but when there's a disaster, it was a "Coalition."
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 08:59 PM   #178
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:53 AM
Quote:
US urges Iran to join Iraq talks

By FT reporters

Published: April 22 2007 22:21 | Last updated: April 22 2007 22:21

Condoleezza Rice is urging Iran to join her at a high-level conference on the future of Iraq next week, signalling that Washington is now ready for a serious exchange of views with Tehran after several months of resisting Iran’s advances in the region.

In an interview with the Financial Times, the US secretary of state said it would be a “missed opportunity” if Manouchehr Mottaki, Iran’s foreign minister, did not attend the minister-level meeting to be hosted by Egypt.

Ms Rice denied that the Bush administration’s Iran policy had ever been directed at regime change, insisting that the aim was to “have a change in regime behaviour”.
The Bush Administration flat out rejected this recommendation from the Baker Iraq Study Group.

Again, try anything and everything?

England went from Chamberlain to Churchill


Has Bush gone from playing "Churchill" to becoming Chamberlain?
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 09:07 PM   #179
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
trevster2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,330
Local Time: 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and notice how, when good things happen, it was done by "The United States;" but when there's a disaster, it was a "Coalition."
Stop confusing the issue with your liberal viewpoints. Don't point out how the U.S knew about Saddam's transgressions against the Kurds and Shiites and were complicit in his rise to power and the sanctions which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children during the 90's. Nah, history will overlook that kind of stuff. Any historian worth their $199 internet degree will know the Bush administration was infallible and omniscient in their Middle East experiment.

Oh, and the 2 million Iraqi refugees living in Syria and Jordan? They have just decided to take a vacation during this minor skirmish back home. A vacation to countries where they are not allowed to work and which face immense infrastructure problems by trying to absorb this new populace. Countries which will soon request assistance from the world to help these people. And the emigration of thousands of physicians from Iraq due to being targeted by militia? Just gone away for retraining and upgrading, the US medical teams are doing a wonderful job serving the remaining people during their absence. And the use of the invasion of Iraq by Islamic extremists to shift moderate opinion in the Muslim world, just an afterthought. These murderous groups are more powerful not less since 2001. But the White House is happy cause Saddam is gone (Osama who?!?). Yippee!!

By 2011, no one will remember any of these or the other fuckups (mistakes is too mild a word to describe the incompetency in planning and executing this debacle) as the Iraq democracy plants a seed within the Arab community which blossoms into a utopian society like the United States of America.
__________________
trevster2k is offline  
Old 04-22-2007, 10:06 PM   #180
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by trevster2k
But the White House is happy cause Saddam is gone (Osama who?!?).
Nice.


"I truly am not that concerned about him."
__________________

__________________
Diemen is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com