An Open Forum

[Angela Harlem]

I want everyone, if you're so willing, to offer your opinions on this particular forum and how you think it can be run so we're all reasonably happy. Questions are often raised about the moderating and that is fair enough. Questions are also often raised about issues and how we all conduct ourselves in here. Free speech often comes up against what is deemed offensive, of what is really appropriate and what is not.

So what do you all want? A forum where everyone can excercise their God given right to say whatever they want, no matter the cost and outcome? Or do we use the moderating team to control it - silencing issues and opinions? Or do we all come to some kind of agreement where a happy medium can be reached?

This is everyone's forum. What do you all want it to be?

 

[melon]

I don't think this question is too difficult to answer. There are subjects we already deem naturally taboo, and with good reason. If I started a thread denying the existence of the Holocaust, I think it would be safe to say that it would deserve closing, because the subject, inherently, delves into anti-Semitism. Or if I started a thread arguing that blacks or women were biologically inferior, or, in the case of a recently closed thread, if I started advocating the slaughter of all Muslims, I would expect these threads to be closed.

However, when it comes to issues of homosexuality, I understand that the moderating / admin team isn't necessarily anti-gay, and I never wish to imply that. I think it is a matter of cultural conditioning; we still think it to be "normal" to question it, as if it were a anthropological antiquity and we expect the "religious" to start thumping irrational homophobic lines. However, I argue that if it isn't okay to be anti-Semitic, if it isn't okay to be misogynist, if it isn't okay to be racist, then it isn't okay to be homophobic. Period. If there were ever meaningful or rational discussion on this subject, then I wouldn't be writing this thread. But when all the arguments against it revolve around prejudice-tainted pseudoscience or religious arguments, that's why the subject is as offensive as any of the other taboos above.

Of course, maybe what I argue is 20 years down the road. It was difficult enough getting society to stop arguing that blacks were genetically inferior to whites. I guess it will take an equally long time to get people to stop arguing that homosexuals are genetically inferior as well. Whatever. People can believe what they want; just keep their prejudices out of this forum in the same manner we'd do to racists or anti-Semites.

Melon

 

[AcrobatMan]

God given right to say

 

[pax]

Please give us your opinions on this. We mods are in a very tough place right now in FYM--moderate too little, and we're accused to allowing hatred and intolerance to flourish; moderate too much, and we're censorious despots. We need YOU to help us find a happy medium.

I warn you this may necessitate some of you growing thicker skins. That goes for EVERYONE.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Re: Re: An Open Forum

It was a little tongue in cheek. God is universal, unlike whichever ammendment it is which all Americans base their right to free speech on. We're an international community however so ammendments mean little to the rest of the world.

 

[U2Kitten]

Please give us your opinions on this. We mods are in a very tough place right now in FYM--moderate too little, and we're accused to allowing hatred and intolerance to flourish; moderate too much, and we're censorious despots. We need YOU to help us find a happy medium.

I warn you this may necessitate some of you growing thicker skins. That goes for EVERYONE.

That doesn't sound like a very nice position to be in. I don't blame you guys, I'd be afraid to jump in. No matter what you do or say you will be criticized for something. To me, there is nothing the mods can do except close a thread that has become too out of hand, or stop one that appears headed in that direction before it happens. Most people would complain about the second one, but those same people might not like how the thread turns out if it's allowed to fester. So what can you do?

No matter what, there will be people who don't want to hear something somebody says. But I think we are all at risk here, putting our own reputations on the line. Once people know how you feel about things, they look at you differently, and that can be a negative thing. So we all take a chance when we speak out. But, once we do, it's our own fault and the results are something we have to live with, even if it means some people hate us for it. So the solution is, if you don't want to take that chance, don't post here, or 'censor' yourself.

However, nobody should expect to be able to say everything they want and realistically expect no one to answer back in a way they might not want to hear. I am getting tired of the attitude all over the site, in most forums here, that people seem to feel they have a 'right to their opinion' and that means everyone else has to shut up and not disagree with them. Then if someone does, they are 'bashing,' or are a terrible person whose posts need to be stamped out. So I guess it all comes down to don't dish out what you don't want to take, and don't say anything you aren't willing to fight over or back down from if it comes to it. We all need to realize our comments may draw responses we don't want to hear.

In a way, it all seems pointless and hopeless, because no one is ever going to change anyonone's mind. What it usually turns into is a thing of ganging up and taking sides, and nothing is ever solved.

The main thing is, if you preach about your right to free speech, you have to be willing to allow the same to others no matter how much you hate their position. We are all different people. Although you have a right to speak your mind, so does everyone else!

 

[BVS]

Honestly I say set it free. Everyone has to realize that with free speech comes consequences. Not everyone is going to feel all warm and cozy coming into this forum, it's the nature of the forum. There are certain subjects that come up that get heated and for the most part I think the majority of us are adult enough to debate the topics.

I think the only time a moderator comes in should be when personal attacks are made, blanket generalizations said, or when one is not lending to the discussion.

I've seen flat out hate and ignorance in here, for the most part these were people who visited for a short while and then dissappeared. I've seen personal attacks, I've recieved personal attacks and sometimes that's just the heat of the discussion. Apologies were made and people moved on.

I think things in here run pretty smoothly for the most part. Now I do recognise an up and down pattern where sometimes FYM just gets unbearable I think that's due to the politics at hand and the fact that for the most part it's the same people and we find ourselves hitting a brick wall.

I don't think there should be any banned subjects, unless of course it's taboo like the examples that Melon made. But subjects such as homosexuality should be able to be discussed. I mean why not it's a true debate going on right now out in the real world.

Just my $.02.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I know that I feel the need to do quite a bit of self-censoring here,just to use an example, when Angela just used the term "God given right" and there was a "raised eyebrow" (I don't mean to single that out, just using it as one example). Just for me, I feel if I say certain things, it might or probably will be jumped on..maybe that's just paranoia, but I think people here sometimes are poised to jump on people unnecessarily for every little thing. I think that might make people self-censor their opinion. That's just a choice I make because personally I don't need or want the stress from an internet forum.

Naturally there are issues like homosexuality or abortion (just for purposes of example) that people feel strongly about perhaps for personal reasons. I just don't understand why that can't be discussed in a respectful manner. It would be nice if people who can't do that would just abstain from the thread

I just don't get why, if you disagree w/ someone's political views, it ever has to get personal or nasty. Even though I don't agree w/ some people here, I still enjoy reading what they have to say, and I even like most of them as people

 

[BVS]

In a way, it all seems pointless and hopeless, because no one is ever going to change anyonone's mind. What it usually turns into is a thing of ganging up and taking sides, and nothing is ever solved.

I disagree, I've been a member of this forum for almost 2 years, one of my first post was in FYM and have been a regular ever since. My mind and viewpoint have been opened quite a bit in here. I haven't made any 180s but at least I've grown a better understanding for certain views and have changed a few views ever so slightly. I've learned a lot and I've also been thanked for showing people a different view. I think this can be a very useful forum for people if they come in with an open mind and not the mind set where they want to preach their views.

 

[Popmartijn]

Why try to come up with a long and wordy answer when U2Kitten and BonoVoxSupaStar said exactly what you wanted to say.

The only part I don't agree with is this one:

In a way, it all seems pointless and hopeless, because no one is ever going to change anyonone's mind. What it usually turns into is a thing of ganging up and taking sides, and nothing is ever solved.

Although I can't quote them by heart, sometimes people do change their opinion based on discussions in this forum. And even when somebody's mind is not changed, that does not make the discussions in here pointless and hopeless.
But that's just my optimistic point of view. For the rest, I agree with what you're saying.

C ya!

Marty

 

[U2Kitten]

I see what you're saying, but it's been my experience both here and elsewhere that some of the people who claim to be 'open minded' are some of the most closed minded, set in their ways, force their opinion on you, hate you for yours, people I have ever seen! (not talking about you) They throw the term around like a volleyball, but what they really mean by open minded is, listen to their opinion, and if you don't agree with them, you're 'closed minded', but the same can be said for them, it goes both ways, but they have those labels!

My position is, I leave myself open long enough to get enough information to form an opinion, but once I do, I rarely change my mind. If I don't know enough about a topic to comment, I won't go spouting off (as you can see I avoided the recent unpleasentness in the 'evolution' thread) It is always interesting to read what everyone thinks, and their reasons for feeling the way they do.

 

[Klaus]

I prefer discussing subjects so that i can understand why those people feel offended. But i think their feelings are more important than my intellectual growth of understanding.

I think the mods of FYM did a good job most of the time. But there is somthing i really miss. It was verry helpful that all people were able to contact all the others via pm which rooted out lots of missunderstandings in advance and led to an understanding of different ideas.

So i have no problem not discussing some subjects or even be silenced by mods so that feelings of other people are protected. There many people allready left FYM because they felt offended.

Klaus

 

[AcrobatMan]

I would like this forum to be completely unmoderated unless extreme conditions.

Thread shouldnt be closed unless there is a consensus among atleast 3-4 moderators - However the right to ask for the closure of thread should be there.

And one should be free to raise eyebrows as well !!!

ps to angela : we will discuss about universality of God later

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

I say free and open discussion unless personal attacks are made. After all, this is FYM. Just because we disagree with an idea does not mean that we should shut down their discussion. People that may make anti-Semitic or racist remarks won't usually hang around if their ideas are shot out of the water in this forum.

 

[Dreadsox]

#1 You all as mods are doing a fine job.

#2 I feel that you do it without bias. When I have had a problem I have been able to talk it out with you and be slapped around privately much to my pleasure!!!!

#3 There are hot button issues that are going to cause problems in this forum because it relates to us on a personal level. What I tend to see as wrong however, is when someone presents a point of view, politely and without malice in their post, only to see them badgered and called names (racist, biggot, prejudiced). While they may be posting something completely opposite of what we believe, I think we are all intelligent enough in here to have seen a truly racist, biggoted, or prejudiced post. When I have seen them the mods have been on it perfectly.

The problem is, that when someone presents politely, in an intelligent manner, no matter how much we dislike what they are saying, it would probably be best to respond without the cannons firing. Labeling someone one thing or another, when they are presenting an opinion politely, and respectfully, then you are not going to change any minds by hitting them with a brick over their head.

#4 Some of the veterans of the forum have become EXCELLENT at making digs at other members by making comments that are veiled insults or they make comments and put a smile face after them which seems to be the shield in which they feel they can hide behind when making said comment. Some of the VETERANS have become excellent at making comments using GENERALIZATIONS about members of the forum. This too troubles me, especially when it is unsubstantiated. I am not sure there is anything that can be done about this, other than letting members continue to call people out when they do this. I can say I have done a few of these things myself, not proud about it, but I have done it.

#5 Just because someone is a Born again leaning to the right Christian does not make them EVIL ect. All too often in this forum, I see posts that are so painfully disrespectful to that point of view, it bothers me, and I do not fall into that catagory. Again you may not agree with this point of view, but it is not necessary to contantly villify anyone who falls into that catagory. That pretty much should apply to any categroy of citizens in this forum. I have seen it done to Catholics as well....but not nearly as much as born again Christians. Again, I may also have been an offender of this as well. I try not to be, but, as with anyone in here, we are human and somethings get the best of us.

Peace

 

[Dreadsox]

No one should be allowed to post in FYM that cannot be PM'd or Emailed directly. Sorry, but that behind the scenes connection sometimes allows things to be sorted out that can derail a thread. That would be a HUGE improvement.

 

[LoveTown]

I say let everybody say exactly what they want. Moderate if things get down to nasty name calling but other than that I think this forum should be a place where people can express whatever they want.

 

[LoveTown]

oh and Dreadsox, I dont agree with you. I cant be PMed cuz I dont pay for premium membership....and until my finances are better I wont be able to. I love this forum and Ive been an active participant and I dont want to be restricted from using it.

 

[Angela Harlem]

How do we differentiate between a personal insult and something that is thoroughly insulting? Obviously namecalling is obvious enough. How do we define the grey areas? I could post an example, but I'm sure we're all aware of what topics can cause this.

 

[verte76]

On the whole, I think FYM is a great place. It's a place where I've learned to be more tolerant of diverse viewpoints, and I think that's important if I'm going to be a functioning part of a democratic society. I think I'm a better person for learning to understand these diverse opinions. I don't object to a completely open forum. I can only imagine how difficult this forum must be to moderate. It is a job I would not want. I've noticed we generally don't tolerate extremely rude posters. Someone posted some extremely rude notes, and among other things took a swipe at Howard Dean's wife for being Jewish. That was a pretty extreme case, and that poster didn't last as we pretty much told him we didn't want stuff like that here. That's the kind of note I wouldn't exactly be thrilled to see here. But I think we could deal with it.

 

[Dreadsox]

On the whole, most people who post here, band together when someone is being completely offensive!!!! Makes it nice.

 

[anitram]

I guess that depends on your definition of an open forum.

I frequent one forum which is populated with brilliant people arguing both POVs, but at the same time it is so open that it's perfecty acceptable to say "Fuck off, asswipe" and flaming is an acceptable form of behaviour. I gather that would be going too far and is hardly conducive to a dialogue.

Whoever here said you do have to censor yourself to a degree - I agree. This is why I have started avoiding heavy religious threads because arguing with people who believe that their way is the only way is like repeatedly ramming your head into a brick wall - you will never get anywhere, because you can't argue with statements of faith. I find this incredibly frustrating, and at times the views are offensive to any sort of open mindedness, so I avoid topics which I know will do nothing but frustrate me to the Nth degree.

I do believe in free speech and no censorship; the question is, can that be carried out while still acting like reasonable, adult human beings? The politicians apparently can't and I'm not so certain that we can either, but I'd love to be proven wrong. Either way, I'm fine with whatever change (if any) is made, as I've always seen myself as very adaptable.

 

[BVS]

Someone posted some extremely rude notes, and among other things took a swipe at Howard Dean's wife for being Jewish.

Whoa, glad I missed that one.

 

[verte76]

On the whole, most people who post here, band together when someone is being completely offensive!!!! Makes it nice.

Oh, yes, *everyone* was pissed at the anti-Semitic post. That person pulled a disappearing act after we said we didn't want that kind of here.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

oh and Dreadsox, I dont agree with you. I cant be PMed cuz I dont pay for premium membership....and until my finances are better I wont be able to. I love this forum and Ive been an active participant and I dont want to be restricted from using it.

He said PM OR email. Everyone should be able to be emailed, make sure you click the 'allow email' option in your user cp. Of course, other non premiums will not be able to click your profile and see that, but if you need to speak to them or we need to speak to you, you can always email a mod and they can arrange things.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that most FYMers are level headed individuals who genuinely want to engage in positive discussion, it is a pity that when you talk about contentious issues or somebody makes a very strong point it can derail a thread.

Moderators can be good, I think that some of it can be a bit too much (personal experience, I know what was wrong with the first one, but the second one on a technicality DOH! ). All in all I think that the ability to appeal and/or edit posts to get the thread back on track after lockage via a moderator could be a good thing, the ability to selectively ban disruptive people from individual threads could also work quite well (however that could be abused), maybe a temporary system where if somebody flames a thread during a more heated argument they are banned from posting in that particular thread for 24 hours with a warning and some time to cool down, could be good in those very contentious but not inherently offensive threads.

I dont like having threads silenced because of one jerk and the inevitable response to the jerk but I reciognise the inherent danger of letting it go on.

Right to say what you want provided that it meets the guidelines and is judged acceptable or unnaceptable by more than one person, or something even sillier.

 

[pax]

I would agree that individual members of FYM need to be able to contact each other. If Elvis doesn't think allowing PMs for non-premium members is a good idea, how do you all think we could get around this? Would everyone agree to make *an* e-mail address (even if it's a freebie, anonymous address that you only use for FYM if you have privacy concerns) accessible to everyone else?

Please feel free to give us other ideas--an FYM moderated chat, perhaps? Some time or times at which a mod would always be available in a chat or IM setting? We are open to ideas.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Ah, now I see that evolution thread has been closed because it was derailed, argh. Okay Klaus this one here is about evolution being linear because you dont have PM. I mean this post is one of those controversial ones that we are talking so much about (please dont screw this post up by responding to it people, I really just want to make a little closing statement that has nothing and should have absolutely nothing to do with anything controversial and this is sort of on track, there is a nice little diatribe at the end )

Evolution basically says that according to the reproductive success of a particular animal within a population the mutation will become more prevailant. This does not inherently favour the creation of higher organisms, I think that there are two different thoughts on the subject about if complex forms of life will form inevitably after the creation of the basic forms. Steven Jay Gould wrote a bit championing the Drunken Walk analogy of a drunk walking down the street, he could either make it to the end or fall flat into the gutter, it was purely random if he succeeded or not, same with evolution in this way because you could have an earth where no higher organisms evolved and only the most basic protozoa survived in the oceans never reaching the level of diversity we have here today. Interesting stuff.

And that is what I think of censorship, a genuinely productive discussion about a German Kid with strength has been derailed by a question about homosexuality that was answered legitimately by Melon, A few others and Myself but was then taken furthur as people imposed a morality element there that was totally out of place, that is the problem because when somebody makes a poor statement that is essentially flamebait the others will inevitably pick them up and take them to task (as they should) and it gets really messy. Frankly I think that if there was a real problematic discussion those angry parties should just jump on IRC or ICQ or MSN and talk the damn thing out and come to a resolution without dragging the rest of us in there.

DO NOT DISCUSS THE OFFENDING POST OR PRIOR ONES PLEASE IT WILL ONLY MAKE PEOPLE ANGRY, PLEASE STICK TO THE QUESTION AT HAND.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that having ICQ or MSN contact details could be handy, I agree with maintaining PM for premium members. A chat could be nice for those heated exchanges that happen every once in a while but really is it worth it, there isnt really a systematic problem here that cant be adressed with some minor adjustments or rules, this is a LOT better than any other political forum I have been on, must be the music

A few of the many political blogs I go to have a system so you can e-mail people but their e-mail is masked and it is done internally, I think it basically allows a message which is then relayed to the reciever from the host, could be a feature maybe allowing 2 messages a week for non prem members, or something. So people could send a message of apology or to agree to disagree.

 

[Klaus]

Thoughts to several comunication methods:

MSN:
Dosn't work in my computer
ICQ:
Technical problems either.
interference-Chat:
nice thing but you have to be online at the same time like the person you want to talk to (since we're living around the globe it could be REALLY difficult to get in touch with some people).
PM:
excelent but i guess Elvis dosn't want to make it for every member to convince them becoming premium members.
anonymous email:
easy for everyone to install but i guess ~99% won't check their fym-only e-mail regularely.

2 PMs a week would make most sense to me if it's technically possible (hey so i could finally read Elvis' birthday pm ;-)