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Old 07-03-2004, 08:43 AM   #91
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When I disagree with someone on religious or political issues, it's never personal. I'm not calling someone I don't agree with a crud, a jerk, or anything else ugly. I understand that people are different and have all sorts of different opinions in politics and religion. FYM would be very boring and not worth my time if it were just a "preaching to the (insert political/religious label here) choir". This place is a great place for me to learn what other people are thinking and why. I went to a peace rally in February of 2003, but then I read many notes supporting the action in Iraq that were intelligent and well-informed. It was really one of the most enlightening intellectual experiences I've ever had. I was a philosophy minor in school, and I didn't stop liking ideological exercises when I qualified for that minor. While I still have doubts about the action in Iraq I understand people's reasons for wanting to have it happen.
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Old 07-03-2004, 09:08 AM   #92
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Originally posted by verte76
When I disagree with someone on religious or political issues, it's never personal. I'm not calling someone I don't agree with a crud, a jerk, or anything else ugly. I understand that people are different and have all sorts of different opinions in politics and religion. FYM would be very boring and not worth my time if it were just a "preaching to the (insert political/religious label here) choir". This place is a great place for me to learn what other people are thinking and why. I went to a peace rally in February of 2003, but then I read many notes supporting the action in Iraq that were intelligent and well-informed. It was really one of the most enlightening intellectual experiences I've ever had. I was a philosophy minor in school, and I didn't stop liking ideological exercises when I qualified for that minor. While I still have doubts about the action in Iraq I understand people's reasons for wanting to have it happen.
First let me say, I have noticed that, and Verte, you're the best You are nice to everybody. We were already friends and I'm glad to see you don't think any less of me because of what I post here. I do feel that some others, while they may not 'hate' me, have changed their mind about me and become less friendly since I've been here.

A lot of you might be surprised to know, though I have posted it before, that I was always against going to Iraq and I still am! It was a disasterous mistake that has cost way too many lives and too much money and solved nothing. I did support the Afghanistan action but not this. The reason I take up for the other side is that most of the people here who are against the war have to be been very extreme and annoying in their villification and demonizaton of Bush, 'the administration' and even the whole US to the point where it makes me sick and angry. Some of the conspiracy theories and trying to prove Bush knew this or that, planned this then lied, etc. are outrageous to me, especially since in the next breath these people will say Bush has no intelligence and can't tell one song from another. Okay which is it, is he a complete ignoramous, or a brilliant sneaky plotting type? SIGH! But the worst thing I have seen is that some people whether they realize it or not have been very unsympathetic to the victims of terrorism over there, and even our troops, as if they somehow 'deserved' it, or what do you expect when you have Bush, stuff like that. I don't even think most of it is intentional or meant to be cruel, but some people's extreme hatred for Bush has become such an obsession the rationale seems ridiculous at times!
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Old 07-03-2004, 10:15 AM   #93
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
This is a place of debate. No one is attacking the whole of you. We don't know you. We don't know anyone in here. We know their political beliefs. There are a few that have been around long enough that we know more, but in here we speak politics.
Thank you!

There is a lot of this "woe is me, people don't like me" going around and I don't understand it. This is why I said I didn't want people messaging me on MSN or whatever, because to me, this is a debate, and a continuation of the bickering or whatever is unnecessary because at that point, it does become personal.

Yes, it can be frustrating reading posts by the "other side" if you disagree with them, but you know what, that doesn't mean they have nothing valid to say. And there are even times when their points are more valid than your own, and I've found that too, on occasion.

Bottom line, to me is that this is a political forum with political discussions, not a place where you will meet people to hold your hands and be your bestest friend forever. That should not be an expectation when entering this forum, IMO, although I am sure you will find friends here nonetheless.
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Old 07-03-2004, 11:06 AM   #94
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It does seem that in many cases, not all of course, not only here, that most liberals feel their way of thinking is mentally superior and people who disagree need to be 'reeducated' or shown the light, liike one person said 'if I can make only one person undertand it was worth it'- what, change some stupid fool's mind who doesn't see things your way? I agree with those who have said that reading a variety of responses helps us all understand why people feel the way they do, but I still don't think anyone's mind is really going to be changed.
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Old 07-03-2004, 11:34 AM   #95
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I am keeping an eye on this thread to make sure it doesn't sidetrack too much

and we're getting dangerously close
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Old 07-03-2004, 02:47 PM   #96
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<< I am keeping an eye on this thread to make sure it doesn't sidetrack too much

and we're getting dangerously close >>

You think? I wondered when this thread got changed from how open do you want this forum to be and what type of rules do you want here to this is how I approach posting here. Nevertheless it is actually very interesting as it does allow people to think about how they actually do approach posting here and what exactly they are trying to accomplish when they post. And I think it is a very telling indicator of what type of forum the people who take the time to post here want. So, yes, the discussion has veered off track, but by allowing the less linear path you allow people to essentially express what they want here.
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Old 07-03-2004, 03:16 PM   #97
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here here indra! Excellent point!!
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Old 07-03-2004, 04:00 PM   #98
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I agree that it is interesting yes

but the idea behind this thread is so that we can come to some kind of standard on how members and moderators approach certain issues in FYM (especially whether every topic should be able to become a thread no matter how offensive it might be to some and whether or not it lacks facts to discuss)

and if we just keep on talking about all the different aspects of FYM we'll never get around to making any decisions because we will have no idea what exactly has been talked about / whether everyone has had his/her say on the original topic

I'm not just making this up and posting this to kill some time
it's what I've gathered from several problem solving meetings I'm involved in
and to prevent that we'll end up doing nothing/losing sight of what is the general view on being able to debate anything no matter what the topic is, it would be wise to limit ourself to this in this thread at least
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Old 07-04-2004, 08:05 AM   #99
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Yes, I'm back, but what I was going to say is back on the original subject.

This morning walking through the Wal-Mart supercenter, I think I hit on something.

A lot of the problems here on this forum have come from things getting away from being about the subject and being about the person. Even if they are still on the subject, it gets personal, thus some people feel offended or attacked, and no way can anyone tell you something doesn't bother you when it does! One of my least favorite lines here is "no one attacked you." Okay, so that means you can say whatever you want, and people are stupid for taking offense? If someone feels attacked, it probably was an attack. I think veiled and subtle attacks are the worst, diguised to look like a normal post but the person who posted it knows damn well what they meant, and the person it's intended for knows, 'gets it' and is put out, yet since it's not obvious it's very easy for someone to go 'no one attacked you' and have 13 other people jump on the bandwagon saying, he's such a nice guy, he didn't do it, when he knows damn well he did. It's frustrating. The bottom line is, if I'm offended, I'm offended. If Melon is offended, he's offended, and same for everyone. It's not up to anyone else to tell us how to feel. I'm not saying people should be censored, but I am saying respect someone's right to feel offended!

It's become a negative thing that we know each other so well. Someone recently posted, we don't know you, we know your posts. That's the thing! Once people see you as posting in a certain direction on certain topics, you become labeled by them, and they judge all your future posts by it. In a way, it's the same thing as prejudice. Like the person who said to me, "I did that to see if you'd bite and you did." In that way, when people use your own self, or what they assume to be your own self against you, it becomes an attack, it becomes less about the subject matter (it's a good way to change the subject!) and more about the person and their posting habits, and that's where the trouble starts and we get off track. Most people do this, even I have done it when I bring up hypocrisy sometimes. I think, well, if they believe this about that, how could they possibly feel this way about this? It has to be a double standard! But I guess the people on TV shows like Crossfire do this, they know the other person's position and use it against them too.

But I just wanted to say, I think this is the problem when threads go sour. The only thing I can say is, either don't post here (which I am trying in vain to get the willpower to do) or if you feel someone has gone too far, report it to a mod, that way it's not the mod's fault if they have to speak to someone and they can't get accused of picking on anyone or taking sides. Does that make any sense?
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Old 07-04-2004, 08:44 AM   #100
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I can't recall a time when I've spoken to someone and let them know what I'm talking about was reported. I think it is important to keep the privacy and confidentiality of the person who made the complaint, so I try not to make the issue about the person who complained, and instead the complaint itself. I dont think the other mods do this either. I dont think anyone can see in all cases when something said has been offensive, so yes, let us know. I have cringed at replies in here and then the person it was directed at replied a while later laughing and joking, obviously not offended or taken aback at all. It's not necessarily for the mods to decide what is personally offensive and what is not. In reasonable circumstances we will, but often I think people dont report things and we cant do anything about it.

It seems, to get this back on track for a moment, that the consensus is for liability to be acknowledged more. Would that be accurate?
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Old 07-04-2004, 09:32 AM   #101
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I never meant that, but I guess it's something I didn't think of. If the mods talk to someone about something that was reported, they are going to know who did it So that's another problem. If you speak to the person about a certain thing then they will know who turned them in and be twice as mad for going behind their back. So maybe we have to leave it to fighting it out face to face on the forum unless things get too out of hand.

Though, how can you argue with someone over whether or not they are offended or feel personally attacked? I just don't get that one. Only the person knows how they feel.

I can also understand how people are afraid to post their beliefs in fear of being flamed and hurt. It happens.


Sigh, I'm sorry for all of you mods, I really am. If I ever start a board, I'm not having a politics forum
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Old 07-04-2004, 10:08 AM   #102
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Unless the person has read my emails, no one will know who reported it. Sometimes we talk to people when something hasn't been reported. Often actually it hasn't been reported. There's not really any way of telling. And it doesn't matter. It is the issue which is important, not "he said, she said".
Dont feel sorry for us though, we do this voluntarily, we dont have to!
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Old 07-04-2004, 10:57 AM   #103
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Nothing worse than he said she said! My non-internet life has been plagued with it

Okay I won't feel sorry for you guys
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