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Old 07-02-2004, 06:52 AM   #76
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Klaus you had sigs switched off. I turned them on for you, but if you dont like them, you can easily contact any of us with our username @interference.com, like salome@interference or bonochick@interf etc.
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:45 AM   #77
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Just for the record, I do think it's possible for someone to be morally uncomfortable, shall we say, with certain behavior (say, homosexual behavior) and not actually be homophobic. I mean, I have a friend who pirates software, and while I wish he wouldn't do that, I'm still his friend and he is by all accounts a nice guy.

I think it's possible, likewise, for someone to not agree with homosexuality but still not actually be *homophobic*. I wouldn't call myself "software-pirate-o-phobic" or anything. I think people have taken the word "homophobic," which really ought to be reserved for people who actually fear and loath all aspects of homosexuality and homosexual people, and applied it to people who have even the slightest quibble with any facet of homosexuality.

I don't think we can close any thread that says any bad thing about homosexuality; one example I can think of off the top of my head to support this is the recent Bill Cosby thread, which some people (not here) might have felt was racist because it criticized low-income African-American people. But no one argued that blacks were "genetically inferior" or anything in that thread; you can have a happy medium between hatred and a lovefest, I think is what I'm trying to say.

I say this particularly to the members of this forum who are concerned with this issue, and you know who you are: Being straight and white has not protected me from difficulty in this world. I sometimes think growing up poor, as I did for much of my adolescence, is a bigger barrier in this country than even race or sexuality. Nevertheless, I do have a very dear gay friend (who is studying to be a priest, too!), and I have been able to have frank exchanges--including critiques from him--on homosexuality. I understand (as well as a straight person can, which is to say probably not all THAT well) the pain and confusion of growing up gay, and while as a mod I do wish to discourage outright hatred and cruelty in this forum, I cannot play, as Salome said, "kindergarten teacher." There will always be people who agree with you--which is, need I remind you, MOST post-ers here as well as most of the mods--and people who do not. We can't necessarily protect you from disagreement.

I hope everyone knows that they can contact any of us mods at any time to discuss these issues--for the record, ANYONE here may IM me, too (my AIM name is paxetaurora, same as my forum name). We all want to do right by the forum on this issue. But we do work for everyone here. And we cannot shelter you from disagreement when it is stated respectfully and intellectually.
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Old 07-02-2004, 08:53 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn


No, when the thread is not being viewed, then there's no charge. Since no one is watching it, there's no transfer of the pictures thus no bandwith is being used. It's just like with electricity or water. As long as the tap in your kitchen is closed there's no transfer of water. The water is still available, but as long as you don't use it, you won't get charged for it.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer.
Thanks
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:13 AM   #79
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However, as long as there are such discussions, I think the mods need to keep in mind that for many of us, making homophobic comments is every bit as offensive as making racist or anti-semitic comments. I very much doubt that anyone would be warned for calling someone who posted racist comments a racist, but it seems to be a different story when talking about homophobic comments. Often those of us who criticize people for making homophobic remarks find that the mods warn us for our response while ignoring the comments that provoked the response.


I think this is 100% incorrect. When people have made openly disgusting remarks that are clearly out of line, no one in this forum has ever been chastized for calling someone out on it. The only time I have ever seen a moderator chastize people is when they are out of line in their correction. And quite frankly if they are presenting an opinion that is contrary to the norm in here, it does not make them anything other than a person expressing an opinion that some do not like. In this community when someone is out of line and making biggoted statements, I have seen EVERYONE band together as a community. Too often, in our own passionate way on topics, we judge someone and call them on things that they have said that do not justify calling them a biggot, homophobic, racist, ect.

AS for your comments about racism. I have been called racist for my poisions on airline security. I have been called racist for my positions on education and welfare and for my positions on affirmative action. No one was warned and I remember complaining to a moderator, and I was told that if I held these positions I should ecpect people to come at me for them. I asked if I was allowed to defend my position, and I was told go for it as long as it was respectfull. I have had members like Verte (and others) for example defend me when people have said or made such comments, even though she has an opposite opinion.



[Q]I think if the mods are going to allow people to make homophobic comments then they also need to allow those of us who are offended to respond appropriately. Too many people hide behind the "I'm not homophobic but I think what gay people do is wrong" argument (which has about as much credibility as "I'm not racist but you can't deny black people are genetically inferior") and I don't think it's fair that people feel able to make whatever homophobic comments they like and then use that claim as a shield against any form of criticism.
[/Q]

1st of all I think that ALL members of this forum would come down on anyone who used a genetically inferior comment. Something I and other conservatives of the forum have never said. You are not homophobic if you have an opinion on the topic. Many people have come to a position on this issue, and just because it is opposite yours, does not make them homophobic. In many cases, their opinions have come from the religious up bringing or educational background, or parental influence on the topic. They are good people who have expressed an opinion different from yours.

They should be allowed to express their opinion in this forum, and we as a community should be allowed to respond [B]APPROPRITELY[B]. It is up to the mods to decide what that bold word means, but I can say that it is my experience that when people have not responded APPROPRIATELY they have been right on the money with their corrections to people on both sides of the issue.
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:16 AM   #80
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Well said Pax!!!!!!

Peace everyone.
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Old 07-02-2004, 02:06 PM   #81
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just had a thought. This forum is called Free Your Mind. To free a mind one has to be willing to explore and experience ideas different than their own. Hence why I believe that this forum should be free from as many restrictions as possible.
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Old 07-02-2004, 04:12 PM   #82
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Well, other than a few kind souls that have made an effort not to assume the absolute worst about me, I must admit that I don't feel too welcome in this forum at the moment, and to the extent that I'm still allowed here it kind of feels like I'm mainly just being tolerated in the name of free speech in the hopes that I might someday be rehabilitated from my beliefs, or, at the very least, with the purpose that people might be able to study me kind of like Hannibal Lecter in a glass box.

I also don't want to be the cause of any more strife and divisions among the regulars here, so maybe I'll just do like I've done for the past several years and go back to just posting in the more general U2-related forums.

No hard feelings or anything, and thanks to everyone who made an effort to give me the benefit of the doubt.

(Note: This post is not being directed at anyone in particular, so no offense meant to anyone in what I've said.)
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Old 07-02-2004, 04:45 PM   #83
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After reviewing the tone of my last post above, it sounds a little more passive-agressive "I'm the victim, you're the perpetrator" than I intended, so please know that I consider the majority of the people here to be fairly friendly and reasonable. I guess it's just that my background is very different from most of the people who come here.
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Old 07-02-2004, 06:20 PM   #84
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This is probably going to look a bit silly with my posting 3 times in a row, but after yet more time to think about it, I guess I've overreacted a bit in regards to leaving this forum as well. I guess I had some built-up emotion from the last several days and I ended up expressing it too hastily.

Anyway, one additional thing I would like to add is that if I have offended anyone or hurt someone's feelings, then please forgive me. I promise it wasn't intentional.

But I don't want to make this thread about me, so please just ignore all of this blathering and return back to the original subject of this thread.
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Old 07-02-2004, 06:41 PM   #85
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Well, I did agree with the comments made in response to your stuff in the other thread, so now I'm kinda feeling bad, 'cause nobody should feel unwelcome here or anything like that.

When it comes to debates regarding religion and homosexuality and stuff, all I personally am trying to do is understand exactly why the people I disagree with feel the way they do regarding those issues, 'cause as of now, some of those views just don't make any sense to me (and I don't mean that in a rude way or anything). So I'm just trying to see why they think the way they do.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Intolerance is a two way street. We toss the word around when we want to paint another point of view into a corner. We can righteously slap all the labels we want on the views with which we disagree; the result is stagnated discussion.

If there is to be only one way to view a subject, it should be noted in the description of the forum and left at that.
That makes sense.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I say any subject can be discussed civily if the basis for the views are intelligently described. This goes for all "taboo" subjects such as denial of the holocost, biological superiority of race or gender, etc.
Agreed. Also, ditto what indra said (and s to your father, too, by the way).

Angela
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Old 07-02-2004, 09:58 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
Just for the record, I do think it's possible for someone to be morally uncomfortable, shall we say, with certain behavior (say, homosexual behavior) and not actually be homophobic. I mean, I have a friend who pirates software, and while I wish he wouldn't do that, I'm still his friend and he is by all accounts a nice guy.
I think this has to be one of the more interesting comparisons I've ever read. I don't know if I should feel insulted for being compared to software piracy or not.

Quote:
I think it's possible, likewise, for someone to not agree with homosexuality but still not actually be *homophobic*. I wouldn't call myself "software-pirate-o-phobic" or anything. I think people have taken the word "homophobic," which really ought to be reserved for people who actually fear and loath all aspects of homosexuality and homosexual people, and applied it to people who have even the slightest quibble with any facet of homosexuality.
Well, as long as it's possible, likewise, for someone to not agree with Judaism and not be anti-Semitic; for someone to not agree with women and not be misogynist; for someone to not agree with black people and not be racist...

Is that possible?

Quote:
I don't think we can close any thread that says any bad thing about homosexuality; one example I can think of off the top of my head to support this is the recent Bill Cosby thread, which some people (not here) might have felt was racist because it criticized low-income African-American people. But no one argued that blacks were "genetically inferior" or anything in that thread; you can have a happy medium between hatred and a lovefest, I think is what I'm trying to say.
Bill Cosby is one of the most eloquent people I've ever seen in the media, and that's due to his way of being very nuanced about where he targets his criticisms or ideology. I've been watching reruns of "The Cosby Show" lately, and it is interesting how much I get out of it now that I'm older. It is amazingly well-constructed, and he did an amazing job of making a show that both celebrates black culture in a positive manner, without being pedantic. Few family shows of any race succeed in that regard.

But we're not talking about Bill Cosby comments, and we also have to remember one thing: Bill Cosby is black and he is addressing his own culture. Like it or not, it is not the place for outsiders of a particular culture to come in and poke their nose it. Yes, it will come off as racist, if white people make these comments, because that is how they will be received. Period. And if people don't like it or understand it, read up on hegemony. As the perceived dominant hegemony (WASPs), you have more responsibilities and more restrictions than the role of subordinate hegemonies ("minority groups").

Since none of you are gay, for the most part, it is not your place to criticize (again, read up on hegemony as to why), and it isn't as if any of you are making targeted constructive criticisms anyway. They amount to little more than inarguable religious arguments that are dubious in their truthfulness or blatant stereotypes that are discredited in scientific or sociological circles. In fact, I don't think I have ever even read a targeted criticism about a specific aspect of gay culture ever in here; all of it has amounted to sweeping stereotypes of the gay community in here. Again, how would you all like it if I started judging white people on the basis of the kind of people that make up Jerry Springer guests? Because, really, that's the equivalent to how gay people are judged on a regular basis.

Rest assured, if I am ever in the position someday, I will likely end up being not much different from Bill Cosby, in terms of controversial outspokenness. But leave that to me.

Quote:
I hope everyone knows that they can contact any of us mods at any time to discuss these issues--for the record, ANYONE here may IM me, too (my AIM name is paxetaurora, same as my forum name). We all want to do right by the forum on this issue. But we do work for everyone here. And we cannot shelter you from disagreement when it is stated respectfully and intellectually.
You've done a good job for the most part, and while I think I have been a bit more vicious than usual, I hope you don't take any of this post personally.

Melon
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Old 07-02-2004, 11:04 PM   #87
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Originally posted by TheFirstBigW
Well, other than a few kind souls that have made an effort not to assume the absolute worst about me, I must admit that I don't feel too welcome in this forum at the moment, and to the extent that I'm still allowed here it kind of feels like I'm mainly just being tolerated in the name of free speech in the hopes that I might someday be rehabilitated from my beliefs, or, at the very least, with the purpose that people might be able to study me kind of like Hannibal Lecter in a glass box.

I can relate to that When I first started posting here, (only a month or so ago in this forum despite my long tenure on interference as a whole) I felt like nobody liked my opinions and wanted me to shut up and go away, and I felt some of the things you did, like the only reason I'm put up with is because there has to be somebody to talk down to, lecture, and try to 'reeducate' or something. After all, with no one to disagree with, there is no debate, and that is not much fun

I have noticed that some people seem to not always say everything they think, maybe they just don't feel like fighting. I can understand that, because I really don't need the added stress and should never have set myself up for it by coming here. But still I have decided to say what I think even though I know I am taking a risk sometimes of making people not like me. I already feel I have damaged some friendships from other forums by letting my personal views be known That is a chance we all take. Sometimes I don't even know why I still post here, I only get aggravated, hurt when I'm misunderstood, and worry about making people mad. But still I can't shut up. Nobody should ever have to shut up and go away.
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Old 07-03-2004, 12:50 AM   #88
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


I can relate to that When I first started posting here, (only a month or so ago in this forum despite my long tenure on interference as a whole) I felt like nobody liked my opinions and wanted me to shut up and go away, and I felt some of the things you did, like the only reason I'm put up with is because there has to be somebody to talk down to, lecture, and try to 'reeducate' or something. After all, with no one to disagree with, there is no debate, and that is not much fun

I have noticed that some people seem to not always say everything they think, maybe they just don't feel like fighting. I can understand that, because I really don't need the added stress and should never have set myself up for it by coming here. But still I have decided to say what I think even though I know I am taking a risk sometimes of making people not like me. I already feel I have damaged some friendships from other forums by letting my personal views be known That is a chance we all take. Sometimes I don't even know why I still post here, I only get aggravated, hurt when I'm misunderstood, and worry about making people mad. But still I can't shut up. Nobody should ever have to shut up and go away.
This is a place of debate. No one is attacking the whole of you. We don't know you. We don't know anyone in here. We know their political beliefs. There are a few that have been around long enough that we know more, but in here we speak politics. There are some in here where I may not agree with 99% of the time, but I have the upmost respect for them because of how they deal with themselves in this forum and in other forums I get along with them great. Nothing should be taken too personally in here, now I know sometimes things do and that's understandable but we're just expressing one part of the person. Some of my best friends have the complete opposite views of mine when it comes to politics and religion, but I love them because I enjoy their views and they have so much beyond those subjects to share with me. In here we just express one side of ourselves. Some of my favorite and respectable posters in here disagree with me 99% of the time. In fact there's one poster and I'll leave their name anonymous (because I'm not sure if they would want me to say this) we have very different political beliefs, we've crossed paths a few times but we respect each other and when I was missing for a short time due to my recent move this person PMed me and asked if I was doing OK. No one else seemed to notice but this person went out of their way. Now that I'm back I will still disagree with them a lot of times but it doesn't mean I've ever not liked or disrespected this person.
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Old 07-03-2004, 03:58 AM   #89
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I'd have to agree with BonoVoxSupastar about that one. There's many debates I have with people, not just here, but in other places, too, in which I may tend to get frustrated with the person, or may have a hard time understanding their views or agreeing with them and stuff, and things may get heated between us, but I certainly won't say I hate them or hold no respect for them or something-quite the contrary. There's very, very few people in this world I seriously, honest to god cannot stand, and I can safely say right now that none of the people here fall into that small category of people I can't stand.

Angela
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Old 07-03-2004, 07:35 AM   #90
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There's very, very few people in this world I seriously, honest to god cannot stand, and I can safely say right now that none of the people here fall into that small category of people I can't stand.

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