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Old 04-11-2008, 08:57 AM   #106
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This issue is one where I really feel all sides are managing to come across stupid. The protesters are doing something counterproductive because of the way they are protesting. There are constructive things to do and then there is this. And the people who are outraged about the protesters' actions should probably reserve that moral outrage for China's absolutely abysmal human rights record and I'm not even referring specifically to Tibet.
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Old 04-11-2008, 09:08 AM   #107
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I don't think there should be a boycott if only because the Olympics being in China focuses more attention on human rights issues there than if they weren't being held there or if many countries boycotted. Let's face it, if the US boycotted the Olympics most people here wouldn't give Tibet (or any other issues regarding China) any more thought at all. With us participating there will be attention on it all the way up to and through the games. Whether this additional attention will do a damned bit of good is debatable, but boycotting the games only hurts the athletes and does absolutely nothing for Tibet.

And I do agree with Rono that it's pretty hypocritical of people to demand the athletes sacrifice when the vast majority of the rest of us are supporting China like crazy by buying their products.
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Old 04-11-2008, 11:48 AM   #108
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I think this is all a bunch of hype and the USA should play.

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Old 04-13-2008, 09:43 PM   #109
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Quote:
China’s Loyal Youth

By MATTHEW FORNEY
New York Times (Op-Ed), April 13


Many sympathetic Westerners view Chinese society along the lines of what they saw in the waning days of the Soviet Union: a repressive government backed by old hard-liners losing its grip to a new generation of well-educated, liberal-leaning sophisticates. As pleasant as this outlook may be, it’s naïve. Educated young Chinese, far from being embarrassed or upset by their government’s human-rights record, rank among the most patriotic, establishment-supporting people you’ll meet.

As is clear to anyone who lives here, most young ethnic Chinese strongly support their government’s suppression of the recent Tibetan uprising. One Chinese friend who has a degree from a European university described the conflict to me as “a clash between the commercial world and an old aboriginal society.” She even praised her government for treating Tibetans better than New World settlers treated Native Americans.

It’s a rare person in China who considers the desires of the Tibetans themselves. “Young Chinese have no sympathy for Tibet,” a Beijing human-rights lawyer named Teng Biao told me. Mr. Teng—a Han Chinese who has offered to defend Tibetan monks caught up in police dragnets—feels very alone these days. Most people in their 20s, he says, “believe the Dalai Lama is trying to split China.”

Educated young people are usually the best positioned in society to bridge cultures, so it’s important to examine the thinking of those in China. The most striking thing is that, almost without exception, they feel rightfully proud of their country’s accomplishments in the three decades since economic reforms began. And their pride and patriotism often find expression in an unquestioning support of their government, especially regarding Tibet.

The most obvious explanation for this is the education system, which can accurately be described as indoctrination. Textbooks dwell on China’s humiliations at the hands of foreign powers in the 19th century as if they took place yesterday, yet skim over the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and 70s as if it were ancient history. Students learn the neat calculation that Chairman Mao’s tyranny was “30% wrong,” then the subject is declared closed. The uprising in Tibet in the late 1950s, and the invasion that quashed it, are discussed just long enough to lay blame on the “Dalai clique,” a pejorative reference to the circle of advisers around Tibet’s spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

Then there’s life experience—or the lack of it—that might otherwise help young Chinese to gain a perspective outside the government’s viewpoint. Young urban Chinese study hard and that’s pretty much it. Volunteer work, sports, church groups, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don’t factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government’s control of society means there aren’t many non-state-run groups to join anyway. Even the most basic American introduction to real life—the summer job—rarely exists for urban students in China.

Recent Chinese college graduates are an optimistic group. And why not? The economy has grown at a double-digit rate for as long as they can remember. Those who speak English are guaranteed good jobs. Their families own homes. They’ll soon own one themselves, and probably a car too. A cellphone, an iPod, holidays—no problem. Small wonder the Pew Research Center in Washington described the Chinese in 2005 as “world leaders in optimism.”

As for political repression, few young Chinese experience it. Most are too young to remember the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 and probably nobody has told them stories. China doesn’t feel like a police state, and the people young Chinese read about who do suffer injustices tend to be poor—those who lost homes to government-linked property developers without fair compensation or whose crops failed when state-supported factories polluted their fields.

Educated young Chinese are therefore the biggest beneficiaries of policies that have brought China more peace and prosperity than at any time in the past thousand years. They can’t imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn’t compute as a valid concern.

Of course, the nationalism of young Chinese may soften over time. As college graduates enter the work force and experience their country’s corruption and inefficiency, they often grow more critical. It is received wisdom in China that people in their 40s are the most willing to challenge their government, and the Tibet crisis bears out that observation. Of the 29 ethnic-Chinese intellectuals who last month signed a widely publicized petition urging the government to show restraint in the crackdown, not one was under 30.

Barring major changes in China’s education system or economy, Westerners are not going to find allies among the vast majority of Chinese on key issues like Tibet, Darfur and the environment for some time. If the debate over Tibet turns this summer’s contests in Beijing into the Human Rights Games, as seems inevitable, Western ticket-holders expecting to find Chinese angry at their government will instead find Chinese angry at them.


Matthew Forney, a former Beijing bureau chief for Time, is writing a book about raising his family in China.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:43 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Volunteer work, sports, church groups, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don’t factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government’s control of society means there aren’t many non-state-run groups to join anyway. Even the most basic American introduction to real life—the summer job—rarely exists for urban students in China.
I felt really sorry for this Mr Matthew Forney's kid if their father raised his family in China like this.

When I was in China, I had 8 room mates (impressive, I know, lol) I was one of the volunteer staff for the faculty, and I had been taking piano lessons for 10 years. The cheer leader of the basketball team for our faculty slept 30cm away form me every night.

Our room is No. 603, the English debat team leader was in RM 604. In RM 606, they have one ballet dancer; 1 girl played flute and 1 was the first violin in her college's school orchestra.

In China, kids don't work, and employ anyone who's under 16 yrs is violate the Chinese labor law. However, it's quite often for Uni student to take tutor works for some pocket money. The cheer leader and the FLG follower in my room worked as waitress for 2 years.


BTW...
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:45 PM   #111
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Why did you move to Australia?
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:48 PM   #112
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Originally posted by martha
Why did you move to Australia?
I wasn't a student that really good at academic study at Uni, and I couldn't pass the entry exam for the Chinese Uni for Master degree study. Australia Uni have much lower entry requirement, so I came here to do my master.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:50 PM   #113
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Thanks. I was being nosey.
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Old 04-13-2008, 11:53 PM   #114
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Originally posted by martha
Thanks. I was being nosey.
No worries.

This is one major reason why there are so many Chinese student study overseas. The University entry exam is an nightmare, for kids in my province, they have to score above 80% to get in.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:06 AM   #115
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I agree that the article had a rather self-important and patronizing tone. I think his primary intent was to address what he sees as a widespread and dangerous misconception among Americans that the 'average Chinese person' is seething with fear and resentment towards their government.

butter7, what did you think of his contention that younger Chinese people are more likely to be strongly nationalistic/patriotic than their older counterparts?
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:30 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
I agree that the article had a rather self-important and patronizing tone. I think his primary intent was to address what he sees as a widespread and dangerous misconception among Americans that the 'average Chinese person' is seething with fear and resentment towards their government.

butter7, what did you think of his contention that younger Chinese people are more likely to be strongly nationalistic/patriotic than their older counterparts?
I guess young people are always have more passion about these things than elder generation, especially Uni students, they have passion + energy + time to be patriotic, and they cares less than the elder people, not only in China, in other countries too. I don't think the 80 yr old grandpa who defented the UN troops in Korean war would be less patriotic than any young guys, but ask them to stand in yesterday's pouring rain in Sydney? Hell no.

The only thing that I found very very interesting is when the young students around the world organize their pro-China activities, they got lot of support and advices from elder people, that moved to western countries after they participated the well know 1989 incident.
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:26 AM   #117
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Though in most other countries it is the youth that forms the greatest opposition to the state generally. In the western nations "protest cultures" usually develop among the 15 to 25 year olds, whereas the article mentions that in China it is the other way round. The people above 40 are who are most vocal in forming opposition and criticising the actions of the government, whereas the younger generation is more in line.
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Old 04-14-2008, 07:45 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
. The people above 40 are who are most vocal in forming opposition and criticising the actions of the government, whereas the younger generation is more in line.
I think this is true anecdotally - the three Chinese women I worked with in the lab, all of whom left China in the late 80s or early 90s when the Chinese were first being allowed en masse to go abroad to study are very much anti-Chinese government and pro-Tibet. I always assumed that it was because they lived abroad for 20 years rather than their age but maybe I was wrong.
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Old 04-14-2008, 08:37 AM   #119
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It would certainly be interesting to see how that "received wisdom" is met with actual figures.
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:41 AM   #120
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The people above 40 are who are most vocal in forming opposition and criticising the actions of the government, whereas the younger generation is more in line.
Some people in/above 40 experienced the broke of the dream of going to a university, because of the lack of resources to develop higher-education at that time. Then they caught on the economic reform, lost the "iron rice ball". Few years later after that, they got laid-off by the company they worked for more than 20 years because the state sold these companies to public stock holder. These people got trouble from getting a new job because the lack of education background, and they are far less competitive than the young people who come from rural area who demand very low payment. Furthermore, since they were the first group experienced this kind of change, and the state government actually didn't have any expeirnece of handling it, plus the social insurance was almost equal to zero in China. It was quite messy at that period of time.

Majority of the people choose to open their own small business after coped with the shock, some of them actually become really successful. However, there always some people that could never got up again.

"The Sun would rise from the west side of the sky" if these people said anything good about the government (for not provide them with education, get them unemployed and indirectly make their life harder by allow peasant's kids get contracted work in the city...etc, etc...).
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