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Old 03-01-2007, 08:08 AM   #256
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
False analogy; in the case of typewriters and digital cameras the technology was developed and marketed to consumers without government programs forcing people to dump their old alternatives; so far there hasn't been any solutions that outcompete traditional forms in the marketplace and those that do can be greatly lacking (for instance the energy involved in making a Prius means that over the life of the car it exeeds the average hydrocarbon burning one in net carbon emissions.

If a consortium developed a zero emission power source that was cheaper than current ones or a means to make current ones zero emission that was economically viable (in light of lawsuits due to carbon emissions and that liability) then it would be adopted. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars if not trillions forcing it to happen isn't the same.
Where government ends up being important is in developing the R&D for products that are "too adventurous" for the marketplace, because, let's face it, corporations aren't interested beyond the current fiscal quarter. And developing "space age" technology isn't something that a company like Exxon is interested in, when they're making record profits with plain, old-fashioned crude oil. And why would the old farts who run America's corporations care about global warming? They'll just laugh all the way to their golden coffins.

However, unlike the NASA-era development that ultimately created things like microwave ovens and hair dryers, things like ethanol, hydrogen fuel, nuclear power, wind power, and ocean power already exist. It's really now a matter of promoting that the infrastructure be built and utilized. And that's where government, rather than taxing the death out of things (which, really, would only be necessary for R&D spending), can set targeted goals and incentives for the private sector to build the energy infrastructure needed for the 22nd century. But we need the leadership; if Bush was as concerned about this as he was in "rebuilding Iraq," it could happen.
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:15 AM   #257
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Here's an example. There's a town here in west TX. 5 years ago a company proposed a swith to wind power. The whole town could be powered. Not one household would have to change a thing. The cost was nothing, and the town wanted it. Well the utility company didn't, so in working with the local government they passed laws that restricted the building of these turbines, i.e. height restrictions and what not. So the local utility company halted progress due to their loss of profits. It wasn't a matter of having inferior power source or cost.
You've outlined one of the biggest problems in America regarding alternative energy, because there's no legal framework in place for outside companies/entities to add to our power grid and get paid for it. As such, your local power utility is not compelled to cooperate with anyone except itself.

Utility deregulation is going to be necessary--as long as it is done properly. Perhaps that means maintaining state regulatory control over the transmission lines, while casting off the power plants themselves as wholly private entities, and, as such, creating a kind of "net neutrality" for power lines, where everyone is allowed to add to the grid (and that could, theoretically, include micro-level homes with solar cells on their roofs selling their excess power).

Either way, one of the first steps that our government needs to tackle before it even starts talking about alternative energy is this. But I guess there isn't enough hot-button "tabloid shrill" for them to pay attention to this issue.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:19 AM   #258
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Originally posted by Irvine511




and what it really comes down to is that people don't want to be told to change their lifestyles.

because it's inconvenient. hence ...
Indeed.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:43 AM   #259
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It's seriously depressing...

I personally think New York will have to be flooded under 10 feet of water before anyone will actually sit up and start to do something...
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:44 AM   #260
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It's seriously depressing...

I personally think New York will have to be flooded under 10 feet of water before anyone will actually sit up and start to do something...
you mean swim up?
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:47 AM   #261
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you mean swim up?
Fair enough
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:09 AM   #262
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Indeed.
Does that make it right for you?
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Old 03-01-2007, 06:45 PM   #263
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i'm going to guess it doesn't, not that i can speak for aeon. i think in general it gives a kind of permission for complacency, doesn't it. that 'think global, act local' campaign had a lot of potential. pity that was all it ever had - potential.
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Old 03-02-2007, 09:14 AM   #264
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Let's try to keep this civil, folks. No need to start getting snippy towards each other.
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Old 03-03-2007, 02:19 AM   #265
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because it's more politically expedient (in 2003, at least) to invade Iraq and pretend we're finding WMDs, and then pretending we're brining democracy, and then pretend we're fighting them there so we don't fight them here, when all along -- as has been pointed out to us in long, droning posts -- we're only in Iraq to protect the Saudi Arabian oil fields.

yes, better to keep fucking up the Middle East than develop new energy technologies.

so when are you buying your hybrid?
that is another reason to be so energy saving as possable.If people look where the oil is comming from,....Venuzuela, Iran, Saudie Arabia, Russia, Africa ( all very democratic countries ) oil money is making those countries only richer.

Saving energy is a win win win situation.

1 - My children will have energy also
2- My children will have a cleaner world.
3- My children will have a saver world because all those corrupt dictators need to start re-think thier position.


btw, a hybrid is only energy saving in cities,...on long distances, the cars are to heavy to save energy.
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Old 03-05-2007, 02:07 PM   #266
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A view from a French Scientist.

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http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...5-fc28f14da388

Allegre's second thoughts
The Deniers -- The National Post's series on scientists who buck the conventional wisdom on climate science
LAWRENCE SOLOMON, Financial Post
Published: Friday, March 02, 2007
Claude Allegre, one of France's leading socialists and among her most celebrated scientists, was among the first to sound the alarm about the dangers of global warming.

"By burning fossil fuels, man increased the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere which, for example, has raised the global mean temperature by half a degree in the last century," Dr. Allegre, a renowned geochemist, wrote 20 years ago in Cles pour la geologie.." Fifteen years ago, Dr. Allegre was among the 1500 prominent scientists who signed "World Scientists' Warning to Humanity," a highly publicized letter stressing that global warming's "potential risks are very great" and demanding a new caring ethic that recognizes the globe's fragility in order to stave off "spirals of environmental decline, poverty, and unrest, leading to social, economic and environmental collapse."

The full Deniers series



In the 1980s and early 1990s, when concern about global warming was in its infancy, little was known about the mechanics of how it could occur, or the consequences that could befall us. Since then, governments throughout the western world and bodies such as the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change have commissioned billions of dollars worth of research by thousands of scientists. With a wealth of data now in, Dr. Allegre has recanted his views. To his surprise, the many climate models and studies failed dismally in establishing a man-made cause of catastrophic global warming. Meanwhile, increasing evidence indicates that most of the warming comes of natural phenomena. Dr. Allegre now sees global warming as over-hyped and an environmental concern of second rank.


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Font: ****His break with what he now sees as environmental cant on climate change came in September, in an article entitled "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" in l' Express, the French weekly. His article cited evidence that Antarctica is gaining ice and that Kilimanjaro's retreating snow caps, among other global-warming concerns, come from natural causes. "The cause of this climate change is unknown," he states matter of factly. There is no basis for saying, as most do, that the "science is settled."

Dr. Allegre's skepticism is noteworthy in several respects. For one, he is an exalted member of France's political establishment, a friend of former Socialist president Lionel Jospin, and, from 1997 to 2000, his minister of education, research and technology, charged with improving the quality of government research through closer co-operation with France's educational institutions. For another, Dr. Allegre has the highest environmental credentials. The author of early environmental books, he fought successful battles to protect the ozone layer from CFCs and public health from lead pollution. His break with scientific dogma over global warming came at a personal cost: Colleagues in both the governmental and environmental spheres were aghast that he could publicly question the science behind climate change.

But Dr. Allegre had allegiances to more than his socialist and environmental colleagues. He is, above all, a scientist of the first order, the architect of isotope geodynamics, which showed that the atmosphere was primarily formed early in the history of the Earth, and the geochemical modeller of the early solar system. Because of his path-breaking cosmochemical research, NASA asked Dr. Allegre to participate in the Apollo lunar program, where he helped determine the age of the Moon. Matching his scientific accomplishments in the cosmos are his accomplishments at home: Dr. Allegre is perhaps best known for his research on the structural and geochemical evolution of the Earth's crust and the creation of its mountains, explaining both the title of his article in l' Express and his revulsion at the nihilistic nature of the climate research debate.


Calling the arguments of those who see catastrophe in climate change "simplistic and obscuring the true dangers," Dr. Allegre especially despairs at "the greenhouse-gas fanatics whose proclamations consist in denouncing man's role on the climate without doing anything about it except organizing conferences and preparing protocols that become dead letters." The world would be better off, Dr. Allegre believes, if these "denouncers" became less political and more practical, by proposing practical solutions to head off the dangers they see, such as developing technologies to sequester C02. His dream, he says, is to see "ecology become the engine of economic development and not an artificial obstacle that creates fear."

Lawrence Solomon@nextcity.com

- - -

- Lawrence Solomon is executive director of Urban Renaissance Institute and Consumer Policy Institute, divisions of Energy Probe Research Foundation.

CV OF A DENIER:

Claude Allegre received a Ph D in physics in 1962 from the University of Paris. He became the director of the geochemistry and cosmochemistry program at the French National Scientific Research Centre in 1967 and in 1971, he was appointed director of the University of Paris's Department of Earth Sciences. In 1976, he became director of the Paris Institut de Physique du Globe. He is an author of more than 100 scientific articles, many of them seminal studies on the evolution of the Earth using isotopic evidence, and 11 books. He is a member of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences and the French Academy of Science.
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:19 PM   #267
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The label denier is a fine piece of political language.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:04 AM   #268
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This is on Drudge today

PETA TO AL GORE: YOU CAN’T BE A MEAT-EATING ENVIRONMENTALIST
Tue Mar 06 2007 17:08:05 ET

The Most ‘Inconvenient Truth’: According to U.N., Animals Raised for Food Generate More Greenhouse Gases Than All Cars and Trucks Combined

Norfolk, Va. — This morning, PETA sent a letter to former vice president Al Gore explaining to him that the best way to fight global warming is to go vegetarian and offering to cook him faux “fried chicken” as an introduction to meat-free meals. In its letter, PETA points out that Gore’s film, An Inconvenient Truth—which starkly outlines the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming and just won the Academy Award for “Best Documentary”—has failed to address the fact that the meat industry is the largest contributor to greenhouse-gas emissions.

In the letter, PETA points out the following:

· The effect that our meat addiction is having on the climate is truly staggering. In fact, in its recent report “Livestock’s Long Shadow—Environmental Issues and Options,” the United Nations determined that raising animals for food generates more greenhouse gases than all the cars and trucks in the world combined.

· Researchers at the University of Chicago have determined that switching to a vegan diet is more effective in countering global warming than switching from a standard American car to a Toyota Prius.

PETA also reminds Gore that his critics love to question whether he practices what he preaches and suggests that by going vegetarian, he could cut down on his contribution to global warming and silence his critics at the same time.

“The single best thing that any of us can do to for our health, for animals, and for the environment is to go vegetarian,” says PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk. “The best and easiest way for Mr. Gore to show his critics that he’s truly committed to fighting global warming is to kick his meat habit immediately.”
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Old 03-10-2007, 10:39 AM   #269
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Maybe this is all tied in to the polar bear in Lost

'Don't discuss polar bears": memo to scientists

By Deborah Zabarenko, Environment CorrespondentThu Mar 8, 5:27 PM ET

Polar bears, sea ice and global warming are taboo subjects, at least in public, for some U.S. scientists attending meetings abroad, environmental groups and a top federal wildlife official said on Thursday.

Environmental activists called this scientific censorship, which they said was in line with the Bush administration's history of muzzling dissent over global climate change.

But H. Dale Hall, director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, said this policy was a long-standing one, meant to honor international protocols for meetings where the topics of discussion are negotiated in advance.

The matter came to light in e-mails from the Fish and Wildlife Service that were distributed by the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Center for Biological Diversity, both environmental groups.

Listed as a "new requirement" for foreign travelers on U.S. government business, the memo says that requests for foreign travel "involving or potentially involving climate change, sea ice, and/or polar bears" require special handling, including notice of who will be the official spokesman for the trip.

The Fish and Wildlife Service top officials need assurance that the spokesman, "the one responding to questions on these issues, particularly polar bears" understands the administration's position on these topics.

Two accompanying memos were offered as examples of these kinds of assurance. Both included the line that the traveler "understands the administration's position on climate change, polar bears, and sea ice and will not be speaking on or responding to these issues."

ARE POLAR BEARS 'THREATENED'?

Polar bears are a hot topic for the Bush administration, which decided in December to consider whether to list the white-furred behemoths as "threatened" under the Endangered Species Act, because of scientific reports that the bears' icy habitat is melting due to global warming.

Hall said a decision is expected in January 2008. A "threatened" listing would bar the government from taking any action that jeopardizes the animal's existence, and might spur debate about tougher measures to cut the greenhouse gas emissions that spur global warming.

Hall defended the policy laid out in the memos, saying it was meant to keep scientists from straying from a set agenda at meetings in countries like Russia, Norway and Canada.

For example, he said, one meeting was about "human and polar bear interface." Receding Arctic sea ice where polar bears live and the global climate change that likely played a role in the melting were not proper discussion topics, he said.

"That's not a climate change discussion," Hall said at a telephone briefing. "That's a management, on-the-ground type discussion."

The prohibition on talking about these subjects only applies to public, formal situations, Hall said. Private scientific discussions outside the meeting and away from media are permitted and encouraged, he said.

"This administration has a long history of censoring speech and science on global warming," Eben Burnham-Snyder of the Natural Resources Defense Council said by telephone.

"Whenever we see an instance of the Bush administration restricting speech on global warming, it sends up a huge red flag that their commitment to the issue does not reflect their rhetoric," Burnham-Snyder said.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:58 AM   #270
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A survey of the animals’ numbers in Canada’s eastern Arctic has revealed that they are thriving, not declining, because of mankind’s interference in the environment.

In the Davis Strait area, a 140,000-square kilometre region, the polar bear population has grown from 850 in the mid-1980s to 2,100 today.

"There aren’t just a few more bears. There are a hell of a lot more bears,” said Mitch Taylor, a polar bear biologist who has spent 20 years studying the animals.

His findings back the claims of Inuit hunters who have long claimed that they were seeing more bears.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/09/wpolar09.xml
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