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Old 02-27-2007, 07:56 PM   #151
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Originally posted by INDY500


I don't think it's wasting, it's using resources to the best of our technology. That we now use energy consuming machines to do what 100 years ago required the physical labor of a man or animal...is a good thing. An advancement.

But technological advancements come with a trade-off don't they?
Fossil fuels pollute and may cause global climate changes. Ok, let's switch to nuclear power. No, that's too icky we're told.

So, do we listen to the alarmists that warn us to cut back on our energy use and therefore slow our progress and lessen our prosperity. Or do we go forward, trusting in the same technology and ingenuity that transformed the world of poverty, filth and sickness that existed prior to the Industrial Revolution, to today's standard of living---to find solutions.
Using it to the best of our technology would mean to use more hybrid cars such as Toyota or Lexus, and from the car builder to really invest in consumtion saving cars. So many cars still use 10+ liters on 100km when they also could use engines that are smaller, but consume less.
But people want these three tons, 150PS cars because they don't see that these leads to a greater discharge of CO2.
How many people that are driving a SUV really need it? How often do you drive when you don't need to. Many American citizen goes by car for distances as short as three hundred metres, or even less. And, sadly, this already spread to Europe.
People are going by car in the cities, even though they are faster with public transportation or even by bike.
If we used state-of-the-art technology every time we would save much money. But the ar manufacturers, oil companies, and all the other manufacturers would have to invest more money into D&R and the profits would decrease.
Also it's still great advertising with such data as 150PS and so on.

People don't see the correlation between their fuel consumption and the damage to the earth.

A very interesting column on this is written by Bill Bryson, and called "The Waste Generation".
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:59 PM   #152
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Originally posted by AEON
I do honestly believe that we ARE designed to be good stewards of the planet.
May I ask on what grounds have you arrived at this remarkable conclusion?
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:00 PM   #153
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In fact, to step back to the Roman Empire for a moment, it's theorized that Christianity actually hastened the demise of the empire, because of complacency. After all, "Jesus was going to come again," so why care all that much if your empire is falling apart at the seams?)
I would have guessed the cause of the Roman Empire downfall to be:
1) a bloated bureaucracy
2) ever increasing taxes
3) The rejection of the necessity of a well maintained military.
4) moral depravity

Which, incidentally, sounds suspiciously like the Democratic Party platform.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:02 PM   #154
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Originally posted by INDY500
So, do we listen to the alarmists that warn us to cut back on our energy use and therefore slow our progress and lessen our prosperity. Or do we go forward, trusting in the same technology and ingenuity that transformed the world of poverty, filth and sickness that existed prior to the Industrial Revolution, to today's standard of living---to find solutions.
And just to comment on this specifically...

There's such a thing as "diminishing returns." A good corporation never sits on its laurels, riding the wave of its past successes. And I believe that's what's been happening here.

Frankly, environmentalists won't kill our economy. Fat, happy, lazy corporate types only interested in the next quarter's profits will do us in instead.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:03 PM   #155
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Why does cutting back on energy have to slow down progress? It's actually just the opposite - it would spur great new technological advances, while you're actually advocating maintaining what we have now. That's not progess to me.
Exactly. How much energy do we consume being unproductive?

Seriously, think about it...
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:05 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

I would have guessed the cause of the Roman Empire downfall to be:
1) a bloated bureaucracy
2) ever increasing taxes
3) The rejection of the necessity of a well maintained military.
4) moral depravity

Which, incidentally, sounds suspiciously like the Democratic Party platform.
actually, the romans had a hard time collecting taxes at their downfall. thats part of the reason why they couldnt maintain the military.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:05 PM   #157
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Renewable energy on a large scale is still a lot more expensive. That's why the industry is growing slowly.

Let's say the Gore estate buys all of it's power from Greenswitch. According to this site, http://www2.kub.org/webreview/includ...npowerQA.html, utilities in the Tennessee Valley add 4 bucks to your bill for every block of Green Power you consume. A block equals 150 kWh. Take the 221,000 kilowat hours Gore burned up in a year, that comes out to 1473 blocks, and an extra $5900.00 on his light bill for the year.

The article says that Gore's average bill was $1359.00, that's about $16,300.00 for the year. That would mean that Green Power boosted Gore's electric bill by over 35%.

I think I got that math right. Anyway, Gore can afford it. But would you be willing to pay 35% more? 25% ? 10% ? Maybe, but if this is going to be adopted by the masses, the conventional price needs to go way up, or the renewable price needs to come down. Eventually it will, but it could be a long wait.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:10 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

I would have guessed the cause of the Roman Empire downfall to be:
1) a bloated bureaucracy
2) ever increasing taxes
3) The rejection of the necessity of a well maintained military.
4) moral depravity

Which, incidentally, sounds suspiciously like the Democratic Party platform.

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Old 02-27-2007, 08:12 PM   #159
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Originally posted by INDY500
I would have guessed the cause of the Roman Empire downfall to be:
1) a bloated bureaucracy
2) ever increasing taxes
3) The rejection of the necessity of a well maintained military.
4) moral depravity

Which, incidentally, sounds suspiciously like the Democratic Party platform.
1) A bloated bureaucracy? The GOP was in power for years, and increased the bloat.

2) Ever increasing taxes? Economists have already noted that our taxes are so low that they're at a breaking point. They've already theorized that politicians are going to start finding "creative" ways to raise taxes without us knowing it. At least, that's the GOP's way of doing it. Democrats, at least, are more honest about their tax intentions. And if you think our taxes are high, try going to another industrialized nation sometime. Then you'll realize that we've been "low" for a very long time now, and it's downright silly how people constantly are complaining about taxes. It's become a national psychosis with no basis in reality.

3) The rejection of the necessity of a well maintained military? Well, we've seen the mess that our military has been in for a while now. We're prepared to throw money at them--but with no accountability. And we think things like "tolerance for diversity" will break "troop morale." Then we wonder why we end up with scandals like Abu Ghraib, and then wonder why most people want nothing to do with joining the military. Why would people want to join a perceived unwelcoming, intolerant organization?

4) Moral depravity? This one I can reject outright, because this was a romanticist, revisionist interpretation of the Roman Empire's collapse. By the fall of the Roman Empire, all of its "moral depravities" had already been long outlawed and Christianity was the state religion.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:13 PM   #160
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As such, if we expect to be a wealthy nation by the 22nd century, we'd best start preparing to be more self-reliant on energy, whether that includes ethanol, wind power, solar power, ocean power (a new and highly promising power technology, as oceanic currents are strong and constant, compared to wind power), or nuclear power. Realistically, it will end up including all of that, as technologies like hydrogen fuel will require a robust power grid like that.
Quite agreed. It matters not what the source is, only that we have and use it. Conservation, however, is not an energy source. Nothing wrong with being more efficient of coarse, but the goal should be to use MORE energy wiser, not less.

From foot, to horse, to windmill, to steam, to coal to nuclear. The more energy we have used, the more prosperous mankind has been.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:14 PM   #161
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Originally posted by anitram


Al Gore pays for offsets. He's talked about them quite a bit if you've gotten to see him live. I'm not sure why it wasn't included in the documentary, because it has been part of his lecture series.

This is another swiftboating attempt.
Yes, exactly. This is nothing but a typical, dirty Republican cheap-shot done on the heels of Gore's Oscar win, out of sheer spite and hatred, which the Republican party is famous for.

Al Gore has already responded to this cheap attack. His office released the following information today, and is asking supporters to get the truth out there:

Vice President Gore's office also wanted everyone to know:

100 percent of the power the Gores use in their home is green power.

Both the Vice President and Mrs Gore have home offices and conduct business at the house so obviously they use more power than someone who is just a homeowner.

The Gores drive a hybrid, and use compact fluorescents.

And the Gores live a carbon neutral life which means that for every ton of carbon they emit, they also purchase offsets.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:17 PM   #162
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Renewable energy on a large scale is still a lot more expensive. That's why the industry is growing slowly.

In the short run. There are many green buildings that have already paid for themselves under 5 years. Yes the initial construction cost is higher, but the long run doesn't even compare. Once these resources become as available as the current building materials, we'll be kicking ourselves for not making the jump a long time ago.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:17 PM   #163
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actually, the romans had a hard time collecting taxes at their downfall. thats part of the reason why they couldnt maintain the military.
Most of it, I believe, was actually because Roman citizens had become quite wealthy and complacent that they refused to do their own dirty work. As such, Rome had started to recruit the outside Germanic tribes to be an increasing part of the military. The problem with that is that the Germanic tribes were always the Empire's greatest threat anyway, so it would be the equivalent of contracting Al Qaeda to defend the U.S. from itself.

Rome was never the most diplomatic or tactful empire, so most of the Germanic tribes never recognized the borders anyway, which often included a large grab of tribal land.

Sociopolitical situations are quite different today than they were back then, so I think there's not much threat of this happening again, as, obviously, there is no way in hell that we'd contract Al Qaeda to be our military, for instance.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:18 PM   #164
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Take it easy on your forehead...it was a joke.
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Old 02-27-2007, 08:22 PM   #165
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From foot, to horse, to windmill, to steam, to coal to nuclear. The more energy we have used, the more prosperous mankind has been.
How are you defining "prosperous". If you mean that now we consume more energy than ever and a large portion of it consumed by entertainment and other non- productive manners. Then yes we are very prosperous.

Your more energy wiser theory doesn't exactly = progression.
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