America's Most Distrusted Minority - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-03-2006, 09:27 PM   #121
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

it seems to me that the social, political, scientific, and economic dynamism of modern life requires that traditionalist believers make a choice. you can either adapt to modernity by embracing at least some degree of liberalization, or you can battle modernity in the name of theological purity.
A false dilema to be sure. Faith has adapted to "modernity" for over 2000 years - and continues to grow. Please don't confuse secular dilution of matters of faith with "modernity".
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:30 PM   #122
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i have been to North Africa, and i would still say that the United States is the most aggressively religious first world nation, especially among nations with the ability to blow up the world several times over.
What has nuclear ability have to do with this? The US an aggressively religious nation? What religious ceremony have you been forced to follow? Prayer been forced to utter?
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:32 PM   #123
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The US an aggressively religious nation? What religious ceremony have you been forced to follow? Prayer been forced to utter?
Well, banning gay marriage for no other reason but religious intolerance is a start.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:35 PM   #124
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,674
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Well, banning gay marriage for no other reason but religious intolerance is a start.

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:40 PM   #125
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Well, banning gay marriage for no other reason but religious intolerance is a start.

Melon
Too many non-religious support the ban to support your statement.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:45 PM   #126
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,674
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Too many non-religious support the ban to support your statement.
Like..?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:48 PM   #127
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Like..?
Do you honestly not know any nonreligious homophobes? I know plenty. And gay people worldwide have been persecuted under atheistic regimes as well as theocratic ones. I realize that organized Christian conservatives are the most visible and vocal source of anti-gay-marriage arguments in the US, but I think the resistance would still be there even without them, unfortunately. It's certainly galling to see politicians publicly arguing against gay marriage on grounds that "God" opposes it, however it's also galling to see them publically endorsing homophobia, period, and to me the two phenomena aren't one and the same.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:51 PM   #128
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 07:31 AM
I reckon it's rather risky, and perhaps too academic to call them entirely different.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 04-03-2006, 09:58 PM   #129
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,674
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Do you honestly not know any nonreligious homophobes? I know plenty. And gay people worldwide have been persecuted under atheistic regimes as well as theocratic ones. I realize that organized Christian conservatives are the most visible and vocal source of anti-gay-marriage arguments in the US, but I think the resistance would still be there even without them, unfortunately. It's certainly galling to see politicians publicly arguing against gay marriage on grounds that "God" opposes it, however it's also galling to see them publically endorsing homophobia, period, and to me the two phenomena aren't one and the same.
Of course there are homophobes of all walks of life, but how many ORGANIZATIONS without any religious reasonings support the ban? And what reasoning would they have? "It's icky"?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:05 PM   #130
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,486
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


The trumpet call of "theocracy watch" may give you a degree of comfort when the political process does not proceed as you desire. It certainly is alot easier to claim attack by a group (through the false claim of theocracy) instead of engaging in the discussion of public policy.

Questioning your "vigilence" is not a matter of being upset, but rather a matter of challenging what I consider a false premise.


absolutely not.

when the Bush administration slashes funding for social programs and tries to make good by doling out more money to "faith-based initiatives" we have but one example of an increasing tendency towards theocratic impulses.

when you have movements to pass a resolution that says that Christianity is the "official" religion of Missouri, you have another example of theocratic influences.

when you have religious and political leaders who suggest that atheists cannot be real americans, you have another example of theocratic influences.

it has nothing to do with comfort and everything to do with genuine concern about the direction of the country. and i always, always follow up my posts with a genuine understanding of the issue, as well as suggest alternatives, and my hope in starting the threads is to generate discussion.

but i suppose it serves your own ends to wave a dismissive hand at all these things.

but they won't be coming for you.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:14 PM   #131
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,486
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


A false dilema to be sure. Faith has adapted to "modernity" for over 2000 years - and continues to grow. Please don't confuse secular dilution of matters of faith with "modernity".


sorry, the "secular dilution" of religion is your own delusion, possibly as a result to modernity that says, no, Intelligent Design is a bunch of superstitious crap. a modernity that says, no, you may not use your religious writings to justify discrimination against any group of people. it says that the earth revolves around the sun, and that there are a plurality of faiths and none has any sort of hegemony over the other.

this is modernity. and this is maintained through the assiduous separation of church and state, and this is precisely *why* religion has continued to prosper even in the face of science that has essentially debunked any and all literal understandings of the Bible. it is because religion is free to operate apart from government that it can and does respond, sometimes quite beautifully, to science and modernity, as it stays in its own realm where it can and does flourish -- it remains religion, not government, not legislated morality, and not a guidebook for geopolitics.

it's these feelings of persecution -- war on christmas! war on easter! war on christians! war on marriage! -- that bespeak a tendency towards demagogury and paranoia and insecurity.

sound like any other societies out there?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:18 PM   #132
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,486
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What has nuclear ability have to do with this? The US an aggressively religious nation? What religious ceremony have you been forced to follow? Prayer been forced to utter?

i don't remember saying that the original post, but i was responding to Nathan's question.

aggressively religous? certainly, in comparison to western europe and australia.

god bless america? in god we trust? one nation under god?

no other modern country does this. no other modern country talks about god in the political arena in the way that Americans do. no other country has a president that says that they consult their "higher father" when deciding when and how to go to war. no other country has a party held hostage by evangelical Protestants. no other country gives even a 2nd thought to Intelligent Design.

and that's just the big picture stuff.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:18 PM   #133
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What has nuclear ability have to do with this? The US an aggressively religious nation? What religious ceremony have you been forced to follow? Prayer been forced to utter?
The Pledge of Allegiance

Quote:
no other country gives even a 2nd thought to Intelligent Design.
Wrong, the ID movement is present in many western countries and in Australia the education minister has supported the teaching of ID.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-03-2006, 10:20 PM   #134
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,486
Local Time: 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Do you honestly not know any nonreligious homophobes? I know plenty. And gay people worldwide have been persecuted under atheistic regimes as well as theocratic ones. I realize that organized Christian conservatives are the most visible and vocal source of anti-gay-marriage arguments in the US, but I think the resistance would still be there even without them, unfortunately. It's certainly galling to see politicians publicly arguing against gay marriage on grounds that "God" opposes it, however it's also galling to see them publically endorsing homophobia, period, and to me the two phenomena aren't one and the same.


in my experience, people who are simply ignorant are far easier to "bring around" when it comes to homosexuality than those who believe that they are acting out of some kind of religious doctrine by opposing gay marriage. it's easy to make a secular person feel like an idiot, whereas it's far more difficult to combat the feeling of virtue a religious person feels when voting against gay marriage.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 04-03-2006, 11:15 PM   #135
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it's easy to make a secular person feel like an idiot, whereas it's far more difficult to combat the feeling of virtue a religious person feels when voting against gay marriage.
I hope and suspect that making people feel like idiots isn't in reality the tactic you usually aim for, but at any rate I've had predominantly the opposite experience. "Ick factor" is deep-seated irrationality and therefore very tough to talk people out of, whereas with religious people you can at least try appealing to other tangible religious values they have to make a case for why it's contradictory to oppose opportunities to support marital commitment and fidelity (and to deprive willing people of a chance to undertake and benefit from these things) by broadening eligibility for marriage. I had similar experiences growing up with people who had reservations about interracial marriage. Perhaps the real problem is that ultimately, these changes have to come from within the group, and from people who believe in the worth of said group nonetheless, in order for real progress to be made.
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Of course there are homophobes of all walks of life, but how many ORGANIZATIONS without any religious reasonings support the ban? And what reasoning would they have? "It's icky"?
My impression is "It's icky" is ultimately the real reason for most folks anyway, regardless of what dogma they cite--it's just easier to call them on the contradictions if they're espousing some other rationale. My point was that it's going to take a lot more than prying Focus on the Family, etc. out of prime political influence to combat homophobia, just as pursuing the right to gay marriage through the courts won't suffice to address how its religious opponents came to have so much formal political clout to begin with.
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com