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Old 12-11-2001, 11:11 PM   #46
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Danospano, in response to your points:

0) It's good that you have a pretty thick skin, but you shouldn't assume that that's the case with everyone.

1) I don't think that the whole idea that terrorists are the oppressed people lashing out at their oppressors applies to al-Qaeda. Religious fanaticism is, imho, a much bigger factor in their decision-making than poverty. I think it's pretty accurate to say that they want the Middle East cleansed of infidels and they want to restore Sharia Islamic law. They probably want Israel expelled from Palestine. They want the US to sever ties with Saudi Arabia so that they can install a properly "Islamic" government (one that would be even more repressive than the one currently in place).

2) John Walker hasn't exactly been begging for mercy since he was captured, you know.

3) I don't think we're killing in the name of "freedom" as much as we're killing in self-defense, and I really wish the US government would say so instead of trying to maintain these ultrapatriotic sentiments.

Yes, I know some civilians are being killed because they have the misfortune to live in proximity to some targets, but I think the US is doing a reasonable job of minimizing civilian casualties.
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Old 12-11-2001, 11:56 PM   #47
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Danny Bonaduce said he should be shot for treason.
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Old 12-12-2001, 01:17 AM   #48
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My reply, in chronological order.

Klodomir:

Sorry to upset your sensibilities, but I'm an American first, moderator second. I believe it's accurate to say that Danospano called the majority of Americans hypocrits; he found himself unable to call those that attacked my country its legitimate enemies; he implied that the United States and Al Queda were morally equivalent; and he suggested that the United States' military actions were obviously and utterly contrary to Christianity.

Oh, and he called us "all a bunch of fucking I.D.I.O.T.S" (though Lord knows what that acronym "I.D.I.O.T." means).

Sorry, but when my country's so vehmently attacked verbally, I will respond in kind.


Anthony:

My point was that appeasement (which did stop with the invasion of Poland - sorry if I implied otherwise) went NOWHERE. It didn't work, thus, the Polish invasion and the blitz against France.

As minor points... I think U.S. probably should have entered the war sooner; I'm just glad Pearl Harbor woke us up.

By Pearl Harbor, France wasn't fighting - it was conquered, with the exception of the Free French resistance.

And by Pearl Harbor, Europe wasn't on the edge of victory. In December 1941, German forces were a mere FIVE MILES from the Kremlin. There was no western front, and North Africa was nearly overrun with the Axis powers. It took both the Allied campaign in the desert and Sicily AND the landing at Normandy to draw enough German troops from the eastern front to give the Russians the opportunity to so quickly advance.


Finally, Danospano:

I'm glad to see you don't take too seriously the "hostile remarks", but I hope you can appreciate how infuriating your original comments truly were:

"I for one am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the majority of Americans. I'm glad to see there are other people in our country, who can think critically enough to see how awful our government and media portray their so-called "enemies", while justifying equivalent horrors on them.

"Fuckin' idiots...they're all a bunch of fucking I.D.I.O.T.S."

In response to your clarifications:

You're mad that we're so "cock-sure" about our actions? That we're sure we're in the right in retaliating? Sorry, but there's very little wrong in being supremely confident in your actions when you honestly believe they're right.

I think that we should re-evaluate our foreign policy, particularly when forced to choose between propping up a convenient dictatorship or working to help establish legitimate democracies worldwide.

(Funny how we're "isolationists" when we do nothing but "imperialists" when we act, even when we act in the best interest of the people.)

But it isn't an "either/or" situation; we can evaluate our actions while we respond militarily.

If it *is* the case that we must choose between "why we were attacked" or "how we respond", I say, we should focus on bombing these thugs - our enemies - off the face of the planet.

And, again, I'm sick of your comments that these thugs are our "so-called" enemies that we "think" attacked us. If we weren't sure we were attacking the right guys, I don't think we would attack with such force. Further, the entire free world (and a few Communist countries) are also inclined to believe that we're attacking the right guys. We must also remember that revealing all our evidence that implicate Al Queda may jeopardize our sources (and, hence, national security). And beyond all that, if we are committed to wiping out those groups that seek to destroy us, all we NEED to know is whether Al Queda is such a threat; whether they planned the specific attacks of 9/11 is really not that relevant.

So you didn't mean any of us when you referred to the majority of Americans as "sheep"? We forum members are somehow better than most Americans and immune from the affliction that affects "most Americans"?

Frankly, I still find that notion elitist and offensive. The Founding Fathers thought the American people were smart enough and independent enough to elect its own representatives, possess firearms, choose their own forms of worship, and engage in political speech. William F. Buckley has stated he would have more faith in a government run by the first 100 people in the phone book than 100 Ivy League scholars. And I believe that the American people are far smarter than you give us credit for.

Thinking critically about of the government doesn't mean you hate the country. But making the U.S. government and the Taliban morally equivalent makes me wonder.

And while we're on the subject of "most of the world", I'd like to remind you that many of the countries that hate us (look at the U.N. voting record) are run by dictators and criminals, and most people who hate Americans are misinformed through a press that is far more propagandistic and controlled than ours (with the notable exceptions of American and European scholars who are still under the delusion that Karl Marx had a good idea).

Ever notice that nations that are the most free and democratic (the U.K., Canada, Australia, even Israel) hate us the least? If the free flow of ideas is what leads to a general hatred of this country, the ones with the most free press should hate us the most. And yet, it's countries like Cuba and Iraq that really hate us.

But, as in all schools, someone occasionally stood up to the bully and gave him a black eye. Sort of like what the terrorits did on 9/11. They gave the big bully a black-eye, for the simple fact that he had given out more than his share of black eyes throughout his school days. ----Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Um... you're saying that the U.S. is the Big Bad Guy that got what it deserved.

But, oh yeah, you "love your country."

I'm sure.

Actually, it's not suprising that a country with pockets of self-loathing (certain areas of academia, for instance) would create people like Michael Moore, like you, and even like the dumb fuck that went to Afghanistan. What suprises is me is how some people are so fervently defending him.

Seriously, you suggest in the same paragraph that a) our country is so bad (Vietnam, our dealings with Native Americans) that he was almost justified in deserting us and b) he was somehow brainwashed when it clearly appears that he hated this country long before he left it.

As per your final comments...

We're not "killing more innocents" for the sake of peace; we are killing murderous thugs for the sake of peace. There has never been a war where there were no civilian casualties, and you're insane or niave to demand that even a just cause must require us to kill with impossible precision. I suppose we must also rebuild whatever structures we demolish, repave the roads our tanks damage, put a fresh coat of paint on the local houses, and sing the local kids a lullaby to help them sleep.

(And we're still sending aid, in case you forgot.)

We're not abolishing freedoms; we're more strictly enforcing laws already on the books and doing such reasonable acts as adjusting the wire-tapping laws in an age of cellular phones in cases of possible terrorism. I mean, hell, if the government is abolishing freedoms now, shouldn't you be crying at the top of your lungs against the exoribitant tax system? Or are you merely rehashing the liberal mantra against Bush and Ashcroft in an attempt to appear thoughtful?

We are indeed in a war, despite our low number of casualties. We should consider ourselves blessed with such a proficient military, and we shouldn't judge a war by our losses alone, but also by the losses we are inflicting.

To paraphrase Patton, we shouldn't die for our country; we should let those other sons of bitches die for theirs - especially if they're so willing to die for the cause and meet the awaiting virgins.

(They wanna die. We wanna kill them. When is the last time the desires of two separate groups have been so well matched?)

Finally, we are NOT "are a country of lost, unintentionally ignorant lemmings, who are too arrogant and too blind to see our faults."

Our innovations in technology, in the arts, and in thought demonstrate that we are among the most thoughtful people on Earth. Our unmatched giving, to each other and to other nations, show that we are among the most humane on Earth. And if the American people are "blind", the rest of the world is blind, deaf, and locked in a box.

And all this is not because we're Americans, because - ultimately - all Americans are descendents of immigrants. It's because of our unparalleled political, economic, and religious freedom.

(We don't have to knock ourselves down a few notches to even the playing field. All must do is spread democracy, capitalism, and religious pluralism to all those who thirst for freedom.)

No, we're not ignorant, arrogant lemmings. We're just a people who adamantly and nearly unanimously disagree with you and your kind, and do so because we have EVERY REASON to. Sorry if that upsets you so much.
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Old 12-12-2001, 09:35 AM   #49
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So now they have caught an Australian too?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/2001...l_qaida_1.html
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Old 12-12-2001, 09:38 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Sorry to upset your sensibilities, but I'm an American first, moderator second
Great. Too bad that your aggressive behaviour makes your otherwise intelligent and well-founded posts (even when we disagree) seem immature and ignorant. I'm glad you are not in charge of anything important.
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Old 12-12-2001, 10:15 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
[Great. Too bad that your aggressive behaviour makes your otherwise intelligent and well-founded posts (even when we disagree) seem immature and ignorant. I'm glad you are not in charge of anything important.
Klodomir, Danospano insulted Americans first. Why are you on Acthung Bubba's case for defending America?

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Old 12-12-2001, 10:19 AM   #52
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I'm just sick of the personal attacks, I guess. I don't even agree with Danospano, and his post wasn't too kindly worded either, but I read nothing but "they" in there, not "you".

And I'm tired of not being able to "free my mind" in here.
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Old 12-12-2001, 10:20 AM   #53
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Oh yeah, and there's the mod thing too. I guess I expect more of them.

But carry on. I know I'm in the minority here.
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Old 12-12-2001, 10:34 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
I'm just sick of the personal attacks, I guess. I don't even agree with Danospano, and his post wasn't too kindly worded either, but I read nothing but "they" in there, not "you".
And I'm tired of not being able to "free my mind" in here.
You're allowed to "free your mind" in here. That's what you're doing right now. But when I don't agree with what people say when they're "freeing their mind", it is my right to "free my mind".
Also, in this case, the "they" IS a "YOU". When Dano Spano, talking about Americans, said "F***ing Idiots", that was in essence a "you are a F***ing Idiot" to Achtung, since he is an American, and to me, since I am an American, and to all Americans.
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Old 12-12-2001, 11:07 AM   #55
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Maybe I misunderstood something. I read "Dubya and his cronies", not Americans. Besides, I was under the impression that Danospano himself is an American, so if that is correct, it can't be an insult to all Americans.

And 80s... I know you were insulted too, but you don't respond in such a manner, which is something I respect.

Finally, I really do not feel that I'm able to "free my mind" here, at least not about the current state of the world. I wouldn't want to be labelled a terrorist.
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Old 12-12-2001, 11:11 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
Finally, I really do not feel that I'm able to "free my mind" here, at least not about the current state of the world. I wouldn't want to be labelled a terrorist.
Well, as long as you don't threaten to blow us up or something, I won't label you a terrorist. However, some people around here are known for being America haters, and I will label them as such.

But I'll always argue with things I vehemently disagree with, so don't take that personally.

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Old 12-12-2001, 01:37 PM   #57
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AchtungBubba;

'By Pearl Harbor, France wasn't fighting - it was conquered, with the exception of the Free French resistance.'

It was one pretty considerable resistance, I can assure you. It didn't just 'give up' as you make it sound.

'And by Pearl Harbor, Europe wasn't on the edge of victory. In December 1941, German forces were a mere FIVE MILES from the Kremlin. There was no western front, and North Africa was nearly overrun with the Axis powers. It took both the Allied campaign in the desert and Sicily AND the landing at Normandy to draw enough German troops from the eastern front to give the Russians the opportunity to so quickly advance.

Er, no. I don't know where you read your history, but BY Pearl Harbour, despite the Germans being FIVE MILES from the Kremlin, you forgot to mention that at this point General Zukov fights back with his forces and, thanks to the BIGGEST loss of life in the Second World War at the sacrifice of the Russians, the Germans were pushed back.

Hitler was not pertrubed by this at all, it was his overconfidance and his concentration on Greece that led to his failure of the Russian coquest. Now, at THIS point the US enters, Russia had already fought and had done most of the dirty work. I never said that we were on the edge of victory at all. On the contrary, BRITAIN, who had been fighting from the very beginning before the US chose to intervene, was more or less burnt out and, had it not been for the Russian effort, would have had to negotiate with the Nazis soon afterwards.
If Russia had fallen, that would have been more or less the end.

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Old 12-12-2001, 08:50 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
I'm just sick of the personal attacks, I guess. I don't even agree with Danospano, and his post wasn't too kindly worded either, but I read nothing but "they" in there, not "you".
And I'm tired of not being able to "free my mind" in here.
You're allowed to "free your mind" in here. That's what you're doing right now. But when I don't agree with what people say when they're "freeing their mind", it is my right to "free my mind".
Also, in this case, the "they" IS a "YOU". When Dano Spano, talking about Americans, said "F***ing Idiots", that was in essence a "you are a F***ing Idiot" to Achtung, since he is an American, and to me, since I am an American, and to all Americans.
Yeah, you got it...I'm was calling ALL American's "F***ing idiots". Why is everyone so sensitive in here. Oops, I said "everyone"...I guess I'm going to get accosted by Melon and DoctorGonzo now, huh?

I'd also like to address whoever said I'm not a good American. Whoever it was that said this, I want you to know that I support the ideals of "America", just not the leadership. Too many things don't really connect and make much sense. Maybe I'm wrong, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm going to keep on questioning authority. That's the way I am.
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Old 12-13-2001, 06:57 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
But I'll always argue with things I vehemently disagree with, so don't take that personally.
I don't. I may disagree with you a lot, but I'm glad you're around. And that's the last nice thing I've said about you this week!
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Old 12-13-2001, 07:51 AM   #60
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Originally posted by U2Bama:
Danny Bonaduce said he should be shot for treason.
And we all know how beloved Danny Bonaduce is.

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