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Old 12-09-2001, 08:16 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Ormus:
Walker should be given due process of law and tried for treason. Considering the lumps of evidence against him, he will likely be found guilty, and a suitable punishment will be appropriate.

It almost confounds me how prevalent religious fanaticism is worldwide, and what people will do in the name of religion.

Ormus

Hence Follows the Sweeping Ignorant Generalization Statement of NOT ME...

Well I'm sure as hell glad none of us Christians do any of that Terrorist Sh#t...I mean.. us here in teh bible belt, we just wanna grow our tobacca


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Old 12-10-2001, 06:29 PM   #32
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He IS still a citizen, so we can't strip that away because he chose to do something else. After all, Americans choose stupid things all the time. If it is discovered that he disclosed American secrets or anything, he needs to be tried as a traitor. It wouldn't, however, shock me if we just tried him in military court, there are a lot of civil liberites that are stripped away there.
I feel like it's his choice, though I don't understand it. Life in prison is probably where he'll end up.

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Old 12-10-2001, 06:36 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Lilly:
He IS still a citizen, so we can't strip that away because he chose to do something else. After all, Americans choose stupid things all the time. I feel like it's his choice, though I don't understand it. Life in prison is probably where he'll end up.
Yes, other Americans make bad decisions all the time. But most people don't choose to betray and fight against the USA. Regardless of whether you divulge secrets or not, if you take up arms or join the military of a nation at war with the US, you have committed treason. Yes, he is allowed to make his choices. But he also must face the consequences.
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Old 12-10-2001, 07:29 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Lemonite:
Hence Follows the Sweeping Ignorant Generalization Statement of NOT ME...
If you are taking a swipe at my "religious fanaticism" argument, it was meant to be general. I lump everyone from the Taliban to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson in that category, and they are all dangerous. I am very dismayed at the extremist Christian elements that are seeping their way into our political arenas. They may be a minority, yes, but they seem to have followers within the state and even federal legislatures. That is what worries me.

When Karl Marx stated that religion was the "opiate of the masses," he was right. In what other form can you slip in any type of extreme ideology or philosophy or wacky idea and get mass amounts of people to believe it?

Unlike Marx, I do not believe that this is cause for the global elimination of religion, because extremism and the opiate effect even inhabits atheism. The cult of Stalin's dictatorship is evidence enough of that. People just need to learn to use their brains, rather than throw it away in the name of "faith."

Of course, it has been a long time since I've been able to decipher anything you have written, so I might be way off here.

Ormus

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Old 12-10-2001, 07:40 PM   #35
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I glad to hear Doctor Gonzo exert some sense in this forum. I for one am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the majority of Americans. I'm glad to see there are other people in our country, who can think critically enough to see how awful our government and media portray their so-called "enemies", while justifying equivalent horrors on them.
I am truly SICK of hearing about this "peace of earth". Give me a break, America!
If we really want peace of earth, like Dubya and all his cronies say they do, why are you going against your messiah, Jesus Christ's, message? Fuckin' idiots...they're all a bunch of fucking I.D.I.O.T.S.

Pardon my language.

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Old 12-10-2001, 07:49 PM   #36
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Doctorgonzo:
I thought you may be interested in the column here:
http://www.mediachannel.org/views/di...missions.shtml

It asks some provocative questions on how the American media have been reporting the Afghani campaign.
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Old 12-10-2001, 09:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano:
I glad to hear Doctor Gonzo exert some sense in this forum. I for one am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the majority of Americans. I'm glad to see there are other people in our country, who can think critically enough to see how awful our government and media portray their so-called "enemies", while justifying equivalent horrors on them.
I am truly SICK of hearing about this "peace of earth". Give me a break, America!
If we really want peace of earth, like Dubya and all his cronies say they do, why are you going against your messiah, Jesus Christ's, message? Fuckin' idiots...they're all a bunch of fucking I.D.I.O.T.S.

Pardon my language.

No, Spano, you're the fucking idiot.

In case you missed the events of recent history, the Taliban supported and protected a terrorist organization that attacked my country in a time of peace, that brutally and intentionally incinerated thousands of my fellow countrymen. These Americans committed no apparent crimes, unless you are willing to include as "equivalent horrors" boarding a passenger jet, going to the office to work, and working a low-paying job to rush into a burning building to save the lives of others.

For this act, they are not "so-called enemies" of the United States. They are CLEARLY the enemies of my country.

(I congratulate you for your ability to "think critically enough" to condemn this country and its people, but I'm still waiting to see whether your amazing skills can be applied to Al Queda and the Taliban - whether you can bring yourself to see these people as the thugs that they are. And I'd love to know whether your critical thinking skills can see that, under a Taliban-led regime, you wouldn't even have the opportunity to criticize.)

Further, your comment about how Christians should turn the other cheek is misleading and presumptuous. It is misleading because it takes a commandment for personal behavior ("turn the other cheek") and applies it to the government - an application that is never implied in the Bible, that is a stretch in even the best case, and is ultimately ridiculous when taken to its logical conclusion: the Bible is against stealing, too, and by your fucked-up logic, the government doesn't have the right to fine people for breaking laws.

And your comment is presumptuous because it presumes to know the will of Christ. It implies that military action on the part of the government is clearly against Christianity. That debate, one among hundreds, has not been decided; and there is a strong argument for military action, namely the "just war" theory, which suggests that it is sometimes a sin to not respond with military action, to thus allow tyrants and thugs to continue assaulting and enslaving others.

Of course, you suggest no reasonable alternatives to war, but your vehement opposition to military action - and your idiotic attempt at moral equivalence - demonstrate that you think military action is a bad idea, and further, that you have no sense of history and no idea what "peace" really means.

Europe gave Hitler Austria; he wanted more and he took more, including Poland and France. (I suppose the U.S. committed "equivalent horrors" by bombing Berlin in reply.) In the last decade, the U.S. and its interests have been attacked through terrorism at our embassies, our military bases, and even an earlier bombing at the World Trade Center. We did nothing - or very nearly nothing - in response, and our very reasonable "so-called enemies" hi-jacked four planes, attacked three of our largest office buildings, and killed thousands.

Sorry, appeasement never has worked and never will work.

You also don't understand the concept of "peace". It is not merely the lack of U.S. Armed Forces in action. It is not only the absence of violence (which, again, wouldn't occur even if we stopped bombing). It is the absence of threat and the presence of justice. We are not in that state now, and we will not be in that state until we act militarily and obliterate those who plan to do us harm.

I know of nothing else to say in response to the shit you posted. I simply find your opinion utterly worthless.
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Old 12-10-2001, 11:54 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus:
If you are taking a swipe at my "religious fanaticism" argument, it was meant to be general. I lump everyone from the Taliban to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson in that category, and they are all dangerous.
You can honestly say that you lump Pat Robertson in teh same category as The Taliban? Sounds like a great call to arms for the Athiest Alliance, but what's the backup for that ideas? I want specifics here.
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Old 12-10-2001, 11:56 PM   #39
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Amen, Bubba!
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Old 12-11-2001, 04:17 AM   #40
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
No, Spano, you're the fucking idiot.
Not that I give a flying fig about your traitor, but shouldn't a mod know better than to attack a board member like that?
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Old 12-11-2001, 10:43 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus:
If you are taking a swipe at my "religious fanaticism" argument, it was meant to be general. I lump everyone from the Taliban to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson in that category, and they are all dangerous. I am very dismayed at the extremist Christian elements that are seeping their way into our political arenas. They may be a minority, yes, but they seem to have followers within the state and even federal legislatures. That is what worries me.

When Karl Marx stated that religion was the "opiate of the masses," he was right. In what other form can you slip in any type of extreme ideology or philosophy or wacky idea and get mass amounts of people to believe it?

Unlike Marx, I do not believe that this is cause for the global elimination of religion, because extremism and the opiate effect even inhabits atheism. The cult of Stalin's dictatorship is evidence enough of that. People just need to learn to use their brains, rather than throw it away in the name of "faith."

Of course, it has been a long time since I've been able to decipher anything you have written, so I might be way off here.

Ormus

Oh My Sweet Sweet Ormus.. Actually I was agreeing with you, then making the usual ignorant American statement that 'well christians dont do that', When i'm sure there are christian terrorists.. but they've just slipped my mind.. I's just making a funny statement... nothing against you ormus.. i do the sweeping generalizatoins and hyperbole for more time than I spend guzzling prune juice, and Boy do I love those prunes.. I mean.. Give me a Fig.. naah.. give me a papaya... naaah.. But Gosh Damn.. Give me a Prune.. and I'm Bouncing up off the wall, Carrying Grizwold's family christmas in tow
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Old 12-11-2001, 10:45 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano:
I glad to hear Doctor Gonzo exert some sense in this forum. I for one am sick and tired of the hypocrisy of the majority of Americans. I'm glad to see there are other people in our country, who can think critically enough to see how awful our government and media portray their so-called "enemies", while justifying equivalent horrors on them.
I am truly SICK of hearing about this "peace of earth". Give me a break, America!
If we really want peace of earth, like Dubya and all his cronies say they do, why are you going against your messiah, Jesus Christ's, message? Fuckin' idiots...they're all a bunch of fucking I.D.I.O.T.S.

Pardon my language.

This guy drank a little too much holy water this morning.. Probably got salmonella from the baptismal font.. Seriously though.. american citizen or not.. treason is treason the world round.. He turns his back on America.. turns his back on his citizenship by committing treason.. his 'citizenship' is only a piece of paper now...
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Old 12-11-2001, 11:44 AM   #43
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Bubba, you silly fool, of course Danospano can't see the Taliban for what they are. Hell, he might even think they're moral crusaders. All he knows is what his hero Mike Moore tells him, and that's that our government is the greatest evil in the world.

One wonders why they choose to live here if it's so bad.
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Old 12-11-2001, 04:49 PM   #44
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ActhungBubba, I do agree with you, ofcourse, about your opinion concerning the treacherous nature of this traitor, and I consider anybody else who opposes this view as nothing more but a do-gooder, and there is nothing worse in this world than a do-gooder.

However, I must argue with you on some points.

'Europe gave Hitler Austria; he wanted more and he took more, including Poland and France. (I suppose the U.S. committed "equivalent horrors" by bombing Berlin in reply.)'

Forgive me, but Europe's appeasement only went so far, to the point of Poland, where at this point Europe did NOT appease, they fought, and they fought a long time before the US did. I am sorry, but the US did not enter on the grounds of saving Europe, they entered the moment Pearl Harbour was attacked and not before, at this point in time, Britain and France were already well and truly fighting the Nazis, not to mention the millions of Russians who not only gave their lives, but, thanks to them, were about to defeat the German front. So, as much as the US might want to paint it as a US victory, Europe was already fighting and was on the verge of winning anyway. Appeasement is something a lame Tory government in Britain invented, but it was then Winston Churchill who stated; appeasement is feeding the crocodile in hope that it will eat you last. AS you know, Churchill was NOT an appeaser, if he had, the results would have been very VERY different. All I'm saying is, appeasement in some way or another was coming from the other side of the atlantic, considering that it had to take the bombing or Pearl Harbour to get the US involved.
Europe did appease, but only to a certain extent. We did NOT let them take Poland and France, that is why the war started.

Ofcourse, I have always been pro-war, and my views on your traitor have been stated before; he should be given a life sentence of torture and pain.

Ant.
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Old 12-11-2001, 10:07 PM   #45
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(It appears that I have a lot of enemies in this thread. Fortunately, if we were to argue in person I'm sure we'd share more in common. Howeverm being as it is, it's very difficult to communicate by message board, and that's why I never take any of those hostile remarks too seriously.)

Let me clarify a few things:

1) I understand that the people who participated in the 9/11 attacks were extremists, who died for their cause. A cause they undoubtedly felt was more important than their measely little lives. Nor do I agree with killing innocent people in the name of a cause. No matter what they are rebeling against, taking innocent lives is against everything I believe in. I would never applaude the death of innocent bystanders.
My qualms with our retaliations lie in the "cock-sure" attitude of the American public. Instead of asking ourselves "why" we were attacked, we are asking ourselves "how" can we kill the freakin' bastards that we "think" attacked us. Of course, most Americans (and notice I said "most", and not "all") are like sheep when it comes to thinking, and would never second guess the intent or motive behind any media or government action. I, on the otherhand, like to form my own opinions. (Something that a lot of people are too brainwashed to try...no offense to any Interferencer's PERSONALY!).
"Thinking", therefore makes me unpatriotic, right? It means that I don't love my country, right? Wrong. It means I'm exercising my freedom to think critically of a government that most of the world secretly depises and or fears. (Notice I said "most" again, not "all".
Here's an example of what I'm talking about": Let's say you meet a person through your friends. Your friends are people you trust, so take their word on a lot of things, right? Right. Well let's say you friends tell you about a person who they all hate. A real jerk, a scumbag...etc. Bow whenever someone or something has a lot of enemies you begin to ask yourself questions. Questions like, "Why does everyone hate this person", or "Should I be weary of their actions", or "should I be friends with this person?"---That's what most of us would do, right?
Well, I look at America like that person all your friend hate.
At first I didn't know, anything about American foriegn policies or economic policies. I was an ignorant kid, with nothing to go on, but the opinion of others that I met throughout my life.
Then I started investigating for myself. I started reading lots of books, watching lots of documentaries, and actually started talking to foreigners at school. I learned that America is looked upon like a "big bully"...the type of guy everyone hated while in elementary school. If America (the bully) didn't get his way...somebody was going to pay. It didn't matter whether or not the bully's intentions were admirable...nobody questions him out of fear. So what happened? Everyone gave into the bully and kept their mouthes shut. But, as in all schools, someone occasionally stood up to the bully and gave him a black eye. Sort of like what the terrorits did on 9/11. They gave the big bully a black-eye, for the simple fact that he had given out more than his share of black eyes throughout his school days. ----Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

2) When I wrote about the solider in Afganistan, who turned out to be an American citizen I was exposing my hatred of America's attitude. Why is it so shocking to hear that 1 peron in a country of 250 million would want to fight for the other side. If it's true, like DoctorGonzo said, that he had no knowledge or choice about fighting America, why are we so deaf to hear it? There were a lot of Americans who were forced to fight in Vietnam. There were more than a few American settlers that wanted to kill millions of Native Americans in our country's early stages.

3) The most crucial point I'm trying to make is that if we want to live in a world of peace, why are we killing more innocent lives in the name of love and freedom? Why are we abolishing freedoms, with Congress' approval in the name of freedom?
Don't tell me it's because we're in 'war', because we're not. We lost one solider in Afganistan....ONE! Not even close to Vietname or WWII, or any real war we've taken part in!
We are a country of lost, unintentionally ignorant lemmings, who are too arrogant and too blind to see our faults.

GOD, BLESS AMERICA...cause we sure need some help...
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