American pilot drops 500 pound bomb, Kills 4 Canadians.

[bonoman]

Canada launches inquiry into Afghanistan bombing deaths

OTTAWA - Canada is launching a board of inquiry to find out how a training mission in Afghanistan turned into a tragedy that took the lives of four Canadian soldiers.

The four soldiers died when a U.S. National Guard F-16 fighter jet dropped either one or two 250-kilogram (500 pound) laser-guided bombs during an overnight training exercise. Dead are Sgt. Marc Leger, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Pte. Richard Green, and Pte. Nathan Smith.

Eight other soldiers were wounded. Six of them arrived for medical treatment at an American military hospital in Germany Thursday. Governor General Adrienne Clarkson was there to meet them. Two of the soldiers are in very serious condition. The other four could be on their way home by Saturday.

The wounds of the two others are minor and they've been treated in Afghanistan. The bodies of the four soldiers who were killed are expected to arrive in Germany Friday, before being flown back to Canada.

According to an American report, two U.S. fighters spotted the live fire and asked a command centre for permission to strafe the area. Permission was denied. But the report says the jets thought they were being attacked and one of them bombed the area.


Canadian flag at half-mast in Kandahar
The U.S. jet was reportedly not involved in the training exercise on the ground.

Marley Leger, the wife of Sgt. Leger, told CBC News that her husband was 29 and had been a soldier for eight or nine years. She said family members were on their way to her home in Edmonton.

The victims were all members of the Third Battalion of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, based in Edmonton.

The Defence Department said the deaths were the first loss of Canadian lives in an offensive operation since the Korean War in the 1950s.

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This has outraged me. How could something in this day and age happen like this.

I heard this early this morning and have'nt even seen it on any American news channels. How could a country ask for our help and be so careless as to bomb us. If this would have been a Canadian bomb droped on four Americans there would be a uproar. This is something that should not happen and i would hope to see this pilot, who was told not to drop a bomb, be prosecuted or at least kicked out of the army!!

This hits close to home as these men live about three blocks from where i am currently residing.

What are some of your thoughts. What should be the punnishment. Should Canada even bother sending help if something like this could happen?



------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

 

[kobayashi]

was it not about 1/3 of american casualties were a result of friendly fire in the gulf storm operations?

american coverage is as expected: poor.


[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-18-2002).]

 

[The Wanderer]

I understand you are angry and you want answers, you want justice, but this was an accident, it seems that the pilots panicked, this article and others indicate the pilot thought they were under attack. I don't know what else to say, it's incredibly sad and tragic, but every indication is that this was not some reckless cowboy dropping bombs for the hell of it. It was an accident.

And to say that Canada shouldn't send help if something like this could happen... could it happen? Well yeah, there is always the risk that something tragic could happen, by accident or through conflict with an enemy.

Again, my deepest sympathies to the families of these men. I'm sorry that something like this happened, it's sad when anyone dies senselessly.

 

[BAW]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
was it not about 1/3 of american casualties were a result of friendly fire in the gulf storm operations?

american coverage is as expected: poor.


[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-18-2002).]

I saw the first special report about this last night (in the US) and there has been coverage all day.

 

[bonoman]

I have watched Cnn from 10 am till 8pm...sick isnt it. I seen it once. mentioned only.

Wanderer, the pilot radiod base and asked to drop a bomb and they said NO. He took another trip around and seen more guns going off, not at him, and dropped a 500 pound bomb. I was allways under the impression that if you are told NO by your supervisors then you dont do it.

This friendly fire shit is killing people. I dont know how many people have been killed in friendly fire on this WAR on Terror, but i have definitley seen it a few times before.

------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono

 

[zooropa16]

umm, not to sound insensitive here, but this is all part of the ugly face of war. IT IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY WAR, but unfortunately when you are dealing with weapons, explosives etc, unfortunate results can happen.

------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

[This message has been edited by zooropa16 (edited 04-18-2002).]

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Bono's American Wife:
I saw the first special report about this last night (in the US) and there has been coverage all day.

not denying there isn't coverage. what there is, as with most everything else, is of poor quality.

 

[dream wanderer]

What is poor quality about it? What more should it say?

I saw it on CNN...MSNBC...ABC...and NBC.

Four Canadians were killed by friendly fire. The pilot did not know about their training manuevers...thought it was hostile action and without orders from his supervisors dropped the bomb.

Terrible.

I was an Army wife for a while. Those on active duty accept the fact that they might be killed in action...and they also accept the fact they could easily be killed in training or by their allies. Doesn't make it any easier on their family and friedsn though..
During WWII and Viet Nam friendly fire incidents happened much more frequently...it just seems so awful now because we are having fewer casualties of war...the press coverage is quicker etc etc. and when it does happen...it stands out more. Gets more coverage..

And there would be no uproar here if it was the other way around. We may not be the best people in the world...but I think we are better people than you give us credit for being...and so are you. We would know it was an accident...still to investigate it completely is the right thing to do.

Now our media might have taken it and run with it and tried to make it more than it was...but the common people..no...we would know it was a terrible accident.


dream wanderer

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by dream wanderer:
What is poor quality about it? What more should it say?

I saw it on CNN...MSNBC...ABC...and NBC.

well i don't know why this is about the media now but american coverage of anything is, in general poor quality. i stated such in passing response to someone else's reference to the media. i am aware that they did show it. in the end i would hazard a guess that american news viewers will see little of the 'outcome' of this story, hear little of the canadian inquiry that has been launched. views are slanted, part truths are told for no qualified reason. maybe it's nationalistic, maybe it's the networks responding to their viewers or maybe they suck. but this thread isn't about that

you are right, what happened was a tragic accident. anyone found to be at fault should be reprimanded. unfortunately 'war' has claimed more victims.

 

[gvox]

Too bad they most likely won't learn their lesson from this and PACK UP and come home?!? OBL isn't even in the country any more, and is there any real hope of ever catching him? From what I've heard they've pretty much evened the score body count wise, so isn't it time to call the whole thing off?

Gabriel

"War, what is it good for...absolutely nothin, say it again!"

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
Too bad they most likely won't learn their lesson from this and PACK UP and come home?!? OBL isn't even in the country any more, and is there any real hope of ever catching him? From what I've heard they've pretty much evened the score body count wise, so isn't it time to call the whole thing off?
Gabriel
"War, what is it good for...absolutely nothin, say it again!"

If it was all about catching Bin Laden, you'd have a point, or if it were about how many people get killed, you'd have a point. But teh object was never either of these. Part of the objective was to totally destroy the Al Qaeda network. That hasn't been done yet.

 

[BAW]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
not denying there isn't coverage. what there is, as with most everything else, is of poor quality.

point taken

 

[dream wanderer]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
i am aware that they did show it. in the end i would hazard a guess that american news viewers will see little of the 'outcome' of this story, hear little of the canadian inquiry that has been launched. views are slanted, part truths are told for no qualified reason. maybe it's nationalistic, maybe it's the networks responding to their viewers or maybe they suck. but this thread isn't about that

B]

You are right if Americans want to know any more about the outcome and the investigation they will have to search for it themselves online or watch Candaian news or the BBC...our news might at the end of the investigation give the findings... if we are lucky...but that will be about all.


dream wanderer

 

[Too Much Asleep]

gabeski, please note my interest in the topic as well.
(the topic is Alternate Ways to Skin Cats, right? Or was it Liturgical Prayers That Keep People From Finding Out The Origin Of Electronic Mail? Either way, please note my interest.)

 

[Sicy]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
You know what else Ive noticed? Since you and I squared off over religion I have recieved no less than 20 virus emails, previously I have never EVER had even one. If you pray daily you'd better pray I don't find out they originated from you. And I will find out where they came from, believe me.

Hey gabriel thats a pretty strong accusation.
I think we all need to tone it down a bit here.



------------------
Sooth me mother..

My Lair

 

[gvox]

Originally posted by Sicy:
Hey gabriel thats a pretty strong accusation.
I think we all need to tone it down a bit here.

You're probably right. Too bad I can't think of any other logical explanation why since I joined interference Ive had nothing but virus emails from such senders as "u2wire", "u2collect", "u2interfere" etc...the only other mailing list that has my email is Wire, and Ive been on there over 6 months without a problem...

Maybe its not 80s, but someone on this list is seriously trying to fuck with me...

 

[LOVE MUSCLE]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
Too bad they most likely won't learn their lesson from this and PACK UP and come home?!?

"War, what is it good for...absolutely nothin, say it again!"

Yeah great idea you genius. Leave it all to the war-mongering americans to do as usual. After all, what/how could terrorism possibly affect your country anyway?

BTW, if it weren't for our military, your country would probably be overtaken and you'd be imprisoned or worse.

It is an unfortunate accident, and I am sorry for it just as I am sorry every time one of our boys gets killed by friendly or hostile fire. Like other folks here pointed out, it was an accident and the pilots obviously thought they were being attacked.

Are you aware of precautionary measures or standard procedure of what to do when an aircraft flies overhead? If it's an allied aircraft, you NEVER take any kind of aim or give that aircraft the impression that you would take aggressive actions against it. What I'm getting at, and may never be revealed, is that something made those pilots go against directives and drop the bomb. Something about the way they acted or manuevered on the ground. Think about it, the pilot(s) didn't just throw away his career for nothing.

We've lost a hell of a lot of people too you know, and we bother to help maintain justice and pursue peace around the world. So don't curse our planes too much, they are protecting you too.

Again, I am sorry for your lost comrades.

 

[gvox]

Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE:
what/how could terrorism possibly affect your country anyway?

BTW, if it weren't for our military, your country would probably be overtaken and you'd be imprisoned or worse...

Please excuse me for a sec while I break out in uncontrollable laughter...

BROOOOUHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

If it wasnt for the US??? What? Who is trying to invade Canada? That's hilarious.

There are a few very good reasons why Canada is not a target for terrorism. Not that the 'reasons' the terrorists targeted the WTC could even remotely be considered valid. But when one involves themselves (some view it as an imposition) in other's affairs as much as the US historically has, one leaves themselves open to the extremist who doesn't appreciate your help, get what Im saying?

When I said the soldiers should pack up and come home, I meant all of them, not just the Canadians. From what I see in your American media, Im not the only one who thinks so.

 

[Sicy]

Gabriel, exactly how would anyone here get your email address?

It's not public in your profile.

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:

What did you do, follow me here? I note you didnt respond to this thread until I did.

Hahah.. I like this kid.. This foaming at the mouth gives us all a nice chuckle.. 80's only entered the thread cuz he read an emotionally driven pile of shit that tried to tread water as a 'Post' here in FYM.

However, I'd hold off on the 'Hunting Me' accusation, I've been Hunted down here in this forum before.. And Until you've been 'Shit Upon' in seven different threads for the same exact thing, I wouldn't jump so quickly to that conclusion. Nice thought though..

L.Unplugged

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE:

BTW, if it weren't for our military, your country would probably be overtaken and you'd be imprisoned or worse.

This is very true.. I've made this statement before, and I will make it again.. If the United States were ever to be overrun, invaded.. That would be the END of Freedom as this world knows it (Which is why at Times... Many Times, I feel we deserve a little more Credit than we receive).. I know.. A Radical and Sobering statement, Nonetheless a Very True Statement.

L.Unplugged

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
Please excuse me for a sec while I break out in uncontrollable laughter...

BROOOOUHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Your arrogance is comforting, yet you wonder why you have made "enemies" with this type of attitude

If it wasnt for the US??? What? Who is trying to invade Canada? That's hilarious.

Okay let me explain this a little bit s l o w e r so even you can understand:
You guys border us right? Right. Anybody who tries to invade you has to deal with us right? Right. We are the only thing stopping this from happening, face it, your military could not ward off any invasion/threat on it's own.

There are a few very good reasons why Canada is not a target for terrorism.

You are not considered a "force to be reckoned with", the terrorists don't bother trying to make the biggest possible statement by attacking Canada.

Not that the 'reasons' the terrorists targeted the WTC could even remotely be considered valid. But when one involves themselves (some view it as an imposition) in other's affairs as much as the US historically has, one leaves themselves open to the extremist who doesn't appreciate your help, get what Im saying?

Pardon me and all of us imposing americans. Join the ranks of those who protest us and claim to be oppressed by us yet come begging on their knees every time they get in a jam. Yet when we need your help, like in this instance for building a coalition, as usual we get a rather "limited" response at best.

When I said the soldiers should pack up and come home, I meant all of them, not just the Canadians. From what I see in your American media, Im not the only one who thinks so.

SO I guess we should let the terrorists continue on, let them get stronger and wiser and have a bigger arsenal. And let those that fund them (saddam) continue on building their weapons that can destroy us all.

The funny thing is that those who enjoy peace the most, or are the safest in the world are those who cry loudest in opposition to the campaign for the preservation of peace.

Evil like this is very serious, and the mastermind MUST be stopped at ALL costs. The WTC is only a drop in the bucket if we don't cut them off now. We should have taken care of this a long time ago. We could have taken Saddam out in the Gulf war, and again several times in the early to mid 90's. We knew where bin laden was damn near all through the 90's but he was ignored.

Watch the movie 'Hannibal', in that movie (made in 2000), OBL was listed in a (albeit partially fictious) FBI most wanted list. Yet the only time our beloved Bill Clinton even bothered to lift a finger against terrorism was when he tried to divert the media attention from one of his various scandals by sending a couple of missels to a supposed "terrorist target".

As far as the "american media" is concerned, you must be misunderstanding them, or I'm really not even sure what you are watching. The media by nature is very liberal, yet they even seem to be reporting good on the war and our president. You see, our president enjoys an unprecedented 83% approval rating from the american public, as reported by our media.

 

[Lemonite]

Originally posted by z edge:
You are not considered a "force to be reckoned with", the terrorists don't bother trying to make the biggest possible statement by attacking Canada.

Unless they were to steal the Country's Supply of those Knee High Boots the Bounty's Wear.. If you think you've imagined Coniptions.. Geezus...

Still Love for Canada..,

L.Unplugged

 

[U2Bama]

gabrielvox:

You have quite a way of introducing yourself around here.

Everyone else:

Please look at the facts: the pilot was ordered NOT to fire on the ground troops when he radioed in for approval.

This doesn't make it any better, but MANY American soldiers have lot their lives in friendly fire as well. During the Gulf War, the first U.S. casualty was Lt. Schramm of Birmingham, Alabama's 117th Air Reconnaisance Wing, when his F-4 was shot down by American (or Allied) forces. I went to school and camp with his daughter, and they were from my community, and it was a sad site to see the family on the news at the memorial service. These things happen and they are unfortunate, but it is no reason to break a valued alliance, or create a new international conflict.

I get the feeling some people just look for a reason to oppose the U.S.

~U2Alabama

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
And let me guess, 80s, being the devout Christian you are you support this war right?
What did you do, follow me here? I note you didnt respond to this thread until I did.
You know what else Ive noticed? Since you and I squared off over religion I have recieved no less than 20 virus emails, previously I have never EVER had even one. If you pray daily you'd better pray I don't find out they originated from you. And I will find out where they came from, believe me.

Sir, a political forum is for debating ideas. I was not targetting you. I disagreed with what you said, so I made my point. And yes, I do support this war.
As far as your idea that it might be me sending viruses, that's preposterous:
1)I don't know your email
2)I wouldn't send a virus to you, even if I did know your email
3)I don't even know how to send a virus
4)I wish you no harm

 

[kobayashi]

first of all this thread should not be about the sustainability of canada in a 'non-america' world. for one because, well, it's not gonna happen and two, well that's just not what the thread is about.

Originally posted by gabrielvox
But when one involves themselves (some view it as an imposition) in other's affairs as much as the US historically has, one leaves themselves open to the extremist who doesn't appreciate your help, get what Im saying?

gabe, don't kid yourself. canada plays follow the leader in the shadow of the US. we have helped them in some of their actions and others we have not. but largely we have benefitted. the attacks on america were a small minded and gross misconception of reality. these terrorists saw evil for some reason in the ideals of capitalism. i am the first to admit, capitalism does most definetely have it's problems in our present world. but don't think for a second that toronto, ottawa, montreal, calgary or vancouver wouldn't have been just as valid a target. the only seperation, and it is admittedly a large one, is visibility on the global scale, the underlying ideals are present however.

for our conservative friends you are correct in stating that largely america have been the global protectors of freedom and safety. but remember, by and large, it is proportional to the advantages of the home nation. most countries employ this general rule, imo, and perhaps it is valid but it does predicate decisions in all but the most extreme cases.

imo.

 

[BAW]

Originally posted by U2Bama:

I get the feeling some people just look for a reason to oppose the U.S.

~U2Alabama

I feel the same way.

 

[brettig]

I think what is really at fault in this latest friendly fire incident is the military mindset, which means any military in any country.

This isnt the 1st time a keyed up serviceman has ignored orders or got a nervy trigger finger (the 3 most famous i can think of are The Boston Massacre preceding the American Revolution, The Charge of the Light Brigade, and the 1905 massacre of Russian peasants in front of the St Petersburg Winter palace by the Tsar's troops).

The best form of inquiry would be one that examined the chain of command, for if this pilot was ordered not to drop his bombs and still did, there must be some problem with the delivery/context/information contained in the orders he received.

I think the blame rests with the pilot, but if we are to prevent these kinds of misunderstandings/incidents/needless deaths, then we need to look at why he did what he did, and how that can be addressed. I dont think this is a question of involvement in afghanistan, because as ive shown, this is a wider issue that streches across many nations and many eras.

[This message has been edited by brettig (edited 04-19-2002).]

 

[gvox]

And let me guess, 80s, being the devout Christian you are you support this war right?

What did you do, follow me here? I note you didnt respond to this thread until I did.

You know what else Ive noticed? Since you and I squared off over religion I have recieved no less than 20 virus emails, previously I have never EVER had even one. If you pray daily you'd better pray I don't find out they originated from you. And I will find out where they came from, believe me.

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
If you pray daily you'd better pray I don't find out they originated from you. And I will find out where they came from, believe me.

dem's are fightin' words boy.
so now this is grounds for a war?