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Old 04-23-2002, 03:42 AM   #76
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Originally posted by U2Byrd:
I really feel we are dammed if we do and dammed if we don't.
though i don't agree with the viewpoint, opposition to american foreign policy is not quite so black & white. what is being opposed is the intentions of the american government which are usually overtly self interested. in the mind of such a person who ascribes to that theory, of course.

you can of course argue that any nation is, and should be, primarily interested in their own investments. but those who intelligently oppose american foreign policy are not merely looking for a reason to do so.

by the way, lemonite thank you, once again, for explaining to us all how it is

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 04-22-2002).]
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Old 04-23-2002, 10:25 AM   #77
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Americanís believe by the majority that our national security our freedom is at stake and we will defend our right to be free in Afghanistan, Iraq, or any where else in the world we need to. I would also say that most Canadians feel the same way.
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quote:

Afghanistan, yes.
Iraq, no.


Even our prime minister, of whom there usually isn't much use, has explicitly stated as much.


I have heard that there is suggestion by the media that several ally countries (such as Canada) have said that publicly they are not with the US on its fight on terror concerning Iraq. However, behind closed doors these countries are behind the US 100%. Why have they not announced their support? Because they don't want to tip their hand to Sadam. (This is what a friend told me I did not hear the report first hand)

If the above is in fact not the case:

Please tell me WHY do Canadians/Europeans not want to get rid of an evil man like Sadam H.? Sadam has used chemical weapons on his own people, is trying to get weapons of mass destruction as we speak, and is currently paying homicide bombers families money to commit murder. Do you really think Sadam is going to stay in his box and not try and kill infidelís wherever they are? Please note I did not say Americans I said infidels that means Canadians, Europeans are included with the US who Sadam wants to rid the plant of. Thanks in advance for explaing your position to me.
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Old 04-23-2002, 12:15 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Byrd:
Please tell me WHY do Canadians/Europeans not want to get rid of an evil man like Sadam H.?
the only reason I can think of is the fear that there isn't really a better alternative then Sadam

reports are that Sadam's son/brother (I'm not quite sure) is even more sadistic then Sadam himself

at least with Sadam we exactly know who we are dealing with

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Old 04-23-2002, 01:44 PM   #79
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Originally posted by Salome:
Quote:
Originally posted by U2Byrd:
Please tell me WHY do Canadians/Europeans not want to get rid of an evil man like Sadam H.?
the only reason I can think of is the fear that there isn't really a better alternative then Sadam

reports are that Sadam's son/brother (I'm not quite sure) is even more sadistic then Sadam himself

at least with Sadam we exactly know who we are dealing with

I have heard this. Sadam's son is an EVIL tyrant worse than Sadam ever thought about being. This makes my point. If Sadam would die today his son would take charge immediately so why wouldnít you want his Sadam and his sonís government removed and replaced by a democracy government as soon as possible? The crown prince who is currently in exile in England is all for democracy in Iraq. The resistance in the North and South who Sadam is murdering on a daily base are begging for help to over through Sadam. They want their rightful King back.

Now on the issue of oil. Not IF but When (I believe it is just a matter of time) the US does attach Iraq and Sadamís government is replaced by a democracy the issue of oil is very big. We all know that other Arab countries do not want a democratic state Iraq who has very large oil supply being an ally and partner to the US. Is this also a threat to Europe/Canada? If you take the above article at face value it says to me that Europe does not want the US to have anymore power than it already does.


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Old 04-23-2002, 04:24 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Byrd:
If Sadam would die today his son would take charge immediately so why wouldnít you want his Sadam and his sonís government removed and replaced by a democracy government as soon as possible? The crown prince who is currently in exile in England is all for democracy in Iraq.


That is exactly right.. America doesn't want to exchange Saddam for His son.. They want Regime Changes.. They want every country to become a Democracy.. Or at least Representative Governments.. AMerica wants all countries to be like It is.. Like Israel.. We Ultimately want all countries to be prosperous in the mode that we are in the way we are. And in doing so, this will also solve the 'Abject Poverty' Issue that everyone and Bono keeps bringing up..

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Old 04-23-2002, 05:23 PM   #81
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I also think it's very important to realize, or not forget at least.. When listening and discussing such topics as our 'Nuclear Policy' to remember.. 'When has America Ever Aggressively Invaded Countries', or 'Tried to conquer other lands, a la Germany and Iraq?'.. Never, Which I think gives us some credence into us laying down an authoritative and Necessary Nuclear Policy or What not...
Just a thought, it doesn't have to be about 'conquering' lands - interventions can also be for the purpose of gaining control of resources, or for destroying a government who you oppose. The US has certainly done plenty of that in the last fifty years.
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Old 04-24-2002, 12:46 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Byrd:
If Sadam would die today his son would take charge immediately so why wouldnít you want his Sadam and his sonís government removed and replaced by a democracy government as soon as possible?
let me try this again
IMO it seems that the US government has decided that things can't get any worse then having Sadam and his group in charge in Iraq
while some other governments are a bit more hesitant since they feel that getting rid of Sadam without having an alternative that a majority of the people in Iraq would support could even lead to an even worse situation in the future

I don't think anyone (at least outside of Iraq) disagrees that getting rid of Sadam and replace him with a democratic chosen government would be the best solution
however I don't think we really know who should be in charge after getting rid of Sadam

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Old 04-24-2002, 04:39 PM   #83
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I always wonder how many babies, and kids, innocent women and men die.... Of course we don't know, because their known as collateral damage...... Those bombs have been soo trustworthy as to kill Canadians on the job, u wonder, how many other mistakes it has made........
all i can say, is that I can't imagine the pain and suffering of the victims of all this. How many more victims are we going to have?
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Old 04-24-2002, 07:07 PM   #84
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You'll have far more victims if the USA stands by and does nothing. Yes accidents happen and inocent people get killed. But over decades of research and improvements in precision guided weapons and better training, civilian losses when a modern military is involved have been massively reduced.
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Old 04-24-2002, 10:02 PM   #85
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, true the efforts in trying to fight terrorism has been somewhat a good stratedgy........... BUT, TO KILL INNOCENT CHILDREN IS BARBARIC! IT IS WRONG, AND THAT IS MY POINT.......... I wish with all this modern technology that we have, we could some how avoid that.... Hey, I wish we could have also avoided bombing the red cross....?..?..?
Go figure,
I think every government is somewhat corrupt,
but one thing I hate is HYPOCRACY
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Old 04-24-2002, 11:17 PM   #86
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Every effort is made by the US military to avoid killing innocent people. But error happens, mistakes happen. Think about the number of lives that were saved this winter in Afghanistan because the Taliban were no longer in power! For the first time in decades, women can go to school.
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Old 04-25-2002, 07:28 AM   #87
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Originally posted by STING2:
But error happens, mistakes happen.
true, but in this case the responsible individual supposedly didn't follow up on orders given to him
I have never been in the military myself, but from what I understand not following orders is never a good thing no matter what the consequences (deadly in this particular situation) are

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Old 04-25-2002, 12:10 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amna:
I always wonder how many babies, and kids, innocent women and men die.... Of course we don't know, because their known as collateral damage...... Those bombs have been soo trustworthy as to kill Canadians on the job, u wonder, how many other mistakes it has made........
all i can say, is that I can't imagine the pain and suffering of the victims of all this. How many more victims are we going to have?
Believe me I hear you. The loss of innocent lives makes my soul cry. I do however, understand the responsibility of ridding the world of evil people who do not cry out for the innocent lives they destroy but rejoice in the killing and suffering of others. If and when innocent people are killed by the US or its ally's bombs we all hurt. Unfortunately the sacrifice of a few to save many is necessary. That may seem cold but it is what we must do to save the many of innocent people who are being murdered by their own governments. If the US government and the US citizens had a choice we would never drop a bomb on anyone, anytime, anywhere. You can not sit down and negotiate with these people. They must be removed from this earth and the only way we can do that is to drop bombs on them. The US has spent Trillions of dollars on research and development of weapons and on training of the military to try and prevent collateral damage (the loss of innocent lives) The US does CARE if they didn't then they would not have spent the money to prevent collateral damage.

Why is it that the US always has to defend itís self when we are trying to do good in the world? Not to mention we would not be in Afghanistan if it were not for Sept. 11 when we were attached and they killed thousands of innocent people. We did not start the fight with Afghanistan or Iraq but we will finish it and WIN. Our right to talk and debate these issues depends on it. I personally think the US has been to worried about collateral damage and has let some of the evil bad guys get away just to plot more mass murder.
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Old 04-25-2002, 02:05 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Byrd:
Why is it that the US always has to defend itís self when we are trying to do good in the world?
yes, one does start to wonder

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Old 04-25-2002, 09:38 PM   #90
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Well..... Trying to do good isn't as easy as ABC.... Their are certain stances that the US takes for the sake of economical interest....... morals and ethics doesn't play a role..... But we don't see that, because the news we watch makes everything the US does look sweet.
I love the US, but, there are certain things that I can't help but to critisize. Listen, I think the US has done an alright job in trying to rid terrorism. However, I don't think that a govern. owned military, of any sort, should ever, ever, kill an innocent life..... its a war crime.
Things that the US does (internationally) that I think doesn't help the situation:
1.) Pressuring Western influence- Leads to dest. of economy/ leads to terror within a state (exmp. Arab state (Egypt))
2.) Avoid using immature words such as "axis of evil" on a developing country, such as Iran, who was building an alliance with the US, untill bush got high (sorry couldn't resist that joke) and made that remark.
3.) Simmering down on the massive Sharon support...... In a situation like this, it calls for a look at the "big picture", the whole equation...

I think the US has done an exceptional job in trying to get things better... Bush definently couldn't have done anything with anyone other then Collin Powell.....

I'm thinking out loud at the moment.. So my thoughts are scattered at the moment.....

I'll get back on this
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