American Law/Legal System

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Dreadsox

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Well, did the founding fathers base it on "judeo christian" beliefs?

It was derailing another thread (a rather boring one on capital punishment)and I think it is a worthy debate. Having argued with Melon that it was, I am now willing, in his absence, to take the other side.

Any takers?
 
beli said:
American law? Or USA law? Many American countries laws are Christian based.

Touche...USA...my apologies to the rest of the Americas.....
 
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their

Creator

with certain unalienable Rights


this is were the argument begins and ends
 
Ok Dread good thinking.... bring this to a new thread because the discussion there was getting boring due to the conversation not staying on topic....

Ultimately it comes down to logic in my opinion. You have a group of people who are for the most part "religious". These people decide to make laws. A good many of the people believe that man's law should be in line with God's law. One knows this because of the many quotes or the biographical information one reads in regards to these men's views on lawmaking. That being the case would it not be logical to conclude that with these men's views on lawmaking, they would not exercise those views when making law?

The following link is to a portion of a site that I think is called America and the Bible
http://www.errantskeptics.org/Fifty_Five_Delegates.htm#John Langdon .

The quotes are from several of the men you sited on the other thread. Now you said earlier a quote from a site that has an agenda isn't good enough, so I took the quote from George Washington and found the entire speech it was from. The context of the entire speech supported the single quote sited. (Your only reply was .... I can't remember but it wasn't oh sorry that does make sense, my bad).

I have a feeling that the same will occur with these quotes found on this site. If needed I will look for the speeches from which each quote was taken and then provide links for those speeches.

It is pretty silly to go to these lenghts to make a valid point about a group of men who were religious and made laws based on their religious beliefs.

People today say that "The Religious Right" are making laws based on their beliefs but on the other hand are saying the founding fathers didn't. I am simple minded, I admit, so maybe that is why I don't see the logic in that.
 
it is pretty silly to go to these lenghts to make a valid point about a group of men who were religious and made laws based on their religious beliefs.
About half the elected members of congress are Democrats

They attend services regularly.

They are what you would call "religious"

Most of them do not use their religion in promoting laws

btw,

That site you posted has some of these historic figures saying things like


Nathaniel Gorham, a Congregationalist, helped write the Massachusett's Constitution, which required:
"Any person chosen governor, or lieutenant-governor, cousellor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, take, make, and subscribe the following declaration, viz. 'I, ____, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth.'"
Such a religious test was Constitutional until 1947 when the Supreme Court rewrote the Constitution by making the First Amendment apply to the states, not just the federal government.
No Judeo in that Christian.
 
deep said:

About half the elected members of congress are Democrats

They attend services regularly.

They are what you would call "religious"

Most of them do not use their religion in promoting laws

btw,

That site you posted has some of these historic figures saying things like



No Judeo in that Christian.

I am not speaking about the state of our government today and those who take an active role in policy making (which no one could possibly know what goes into their decisions i.e do they consider how their vote would line up with the Bible, do they say a personal pray before casting the vote...etc) I am speaking of people who laid the foundations of our system of law. That is what the debate is over anyway.

If it were about the lawmaking in contemporary America would folks not be saying that certain Christians have an agenda? That they have this belief system and they are going to let it factor in to their decsion making process and that is a danger. Would they not then say that their religious views are affecting the way they make laws? Yes. I see it all too often. Yet on the other hand a lot of times these same people are saying the founding father's somehow miraculous did not do that, when in fact that is exactly what they did.

I showed where some of the people Dread pointed out had very religious beliefs in regards to what law is and the manner in which laws are made. If those people believed that way in regards to how laws should be made, is it so ridiculous to think that they would have taken that approach to lawmaking?

No Judeo in that Christian? You do realize that Judeo-Christian means drawing from both the Torrah (Old Testament - laws of the Jews - Judeo) and the New Testament (Teachings by and about Christ - Christian)? Christianity's roots are in Judaism. You can not have Christianity without Judaism. If you didn't know that you can't really be faulted for the "No Judeo in that Christian" remark.
 
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thacraic said:



If it were about the lawmaking in contemporary America would folks not be saying that certain Christians have an agenda? That they have this belief system and they are going to let it factor in to their decsion making process and that is a danger. Would they not then say that their religious views are affecting the way they make laws? Yes. I see it all too often. Yet on the other hand a lot of times these same people are saying the founding father's somehow miraculous did not do that, when in fact that is exactly what they did.


Ok so can we name a law in our books today that was written by our founding fathers that was solely biblical and not based on does this harm others, harm society, etc.

If law was based on Judeo-Christian belief why wasn't honor thy mother and father, adultery, strange gods before me(that would seem to be the biggest if we were going to ensure a Judeo-Christian society), lord name in vain, or sabbath holy?
 
It is accurate to say that many of the founding fathers believed in the Bible.

A good deal of them, did not believe in the divinity of Christ.

Jefferson being the easiest to prove on this topic.

I cannot claim that the laws are based on "Judeo-Christian" teachings because these men were not "Christian" by the definition of the religious right today. "Judeo-Christian" is too broad a term, one that would imply that the fouding fathers were in line with many people's thinking of Christ today.
 
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But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man; outlines which it is lamentable he did not live to fill up. Epictetus and Epicurus give laws for governing ourselves, Jesus a supplement of the duties and charities we owe to others. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent moralist, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems,* invented by ultra-Christian sects, unauthorized by a single word ever uttered by him, is a most desirable object, and one to which Priestley has successfully devoted his labors and learning. It would in time, it is to be hoped, effect a quiet euthanasia of the heresies of bigotry and fanaticism which have so long triumphed over human reason, and so generally and deeply afflicted mankind; but this work is to be begun by winnowing the grain from the chaff of the historians of his life. I have sometimes thought of translating Epictetus (for he has never been tolerable translated into English) by adding the genuine doctrines of Epicurus from the Syntagma of Gassendi, and an abstract from the Evangelists of whatever has the stamp of the eloquence and fine imagination of Jesus. The last I attempted too hastily some twelve or fifteen years ago. It was the work of two or three nights only, at Washington, after getting through the evening task of reading the letters and papers of the day. But with one foot in the grave, these are now idle projects for me. My business is to beguile the wearisomeness of declining life, as I endeavor to do, by the delights of classical reading and of mathematical truths, and by the consolations of a sound philosophy, equally indifferent to hope and fear.




* e. g. The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of Hierarchy, &c.

( Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, from Monticello, October 31, 1819; Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, pp. 1430-1433. )
 
By Jeffersons own writings, it is clear he is not a Christian. He believes there is a moral message, diamonds hidden in the dungheap, that is the four Gospels.

This does not make him Christian. He does believe in the morals of the message of Christ though.
 
[Q]The context of the entire speech supported the single quote sited. (Your only reply was .... I can't remember but it wasn't oh sorry that does make sense, my bad).[/Q]

I believe I said that the speech had nothing to do with the American legal system or law, set up by the constitution.

All of the founding fathers had respect for the moral message of the Bible. They were not all Christians. Respect for the Bible does not make them Christian. To claim they our constitution and laws are Judeo Christian is wrong. They were of the age of enlightenment. Like it or not, many were classical scholars of the Greek Philosophers. This is where our governement came from. Was the Bible included in helping form the morals, yes. Was the Bible included in the sense they were attempting to establish a Christian governement, no.

It is wrong to say they were Judeo-Christians. They were moralists.

EDITED TO ADD:

Adams, Jeferson, and Washington did not create the Constitution. These were the men you quoted. They were founding Fathers, but they were not part of the men in Philidelphia who created the constitution.

If the constitution is the LAW of the land, how can one claim it was Judeo-Christian based on the quoted of Adams, Jefferson and Washington when their names are not on the document.
 
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Hello Dread,

To everything you posted....

Never once did I say these men were Christians or even Judeo-Christians. Ever. I said they were religious and that they used Judeo-Christian principles in their lawmaking. That is a truthful statement and that is what people were disagreeing with.

As far as Jefferson, Adams etc being moralist, yeh they were, but their morals were rooted in Judeo-Christian philosiphy. As far as the 55 people who were responsible for framing the constitution, from everything I have read, that would be true of the majority of them as well.

As far as their being Diest just because someone does not accept the diety of Christ does not mean they do not embrace His teachings. I have met far to many people in my life that think in that way. Funny enough, more recently, I have been going to some Christian rooms on Paltalk and have had some interesting conversations with people (non-trinitiarian, calvinist, preterist :huh: to the last one) and the conversations get heated at times, but overall it is great fun and non-combative. At any rate back to the topic....

I am not saying that these men wanted a theocracy. They didn't. I am thankful for that. As a Christian and with the manyyyyy takes on Christianity out there I do not want anyone deciding how I embrace my faith. The people who founded this country didn't either. None of that changes the fact that they used the Bible as a source in their approach to lawmaking. Nothing anyone has said has made me think otherwise. I for one am open to hearing evidence that shows that it isn't the case.

In turth however, it doesnt matter to me either way. It is the greatest LEGAL document in the world and all in all it would just be nice to know more of the histroy behind it.
 
Do Miss America said:


Ok so can we name a law in our books today that was written by our founding fathers that was solely biblical and not based on does this harm others, harm society, etc.

If law was based on Judeo-Christian belief why wasn't honor thy mother and father, adultery, strange gods before me(that would seem to be the biggest if we were going to ensure a Judeo-Christian society), lord name in vain, or sabbath holy?

They did not set out with the intent to create a Judeo-Christian society. That does not mean they didn't approach lawmaking with Judeo-Christian beliefs about it. That is all that is being said here.

People seem to be running with what is said and making conclusions about the original intent of the discussion.

I used the example of people being up in arms about Christians in office who make decisions that affect everyone to show that people are saying that these people are "letting their beliefs" cloud their judgement but on the other hand are not willing to say the founding fathers did.

I am not debating what laws do and do not infringe on personal liberties. I am debating whether or not the founding fathers approached lawmaking with a Judeo-Christian belief of said lawmaking.
 
thacraic said:
Hello Dread,

To everything you posted....

Never once did I say these men were Christians or even Judeo-Christians. Ever. I said they were religious and that they used Judeo-Christian principles in their lawmaking. That is a truthful statement and that is what people were disagreeing with.



I would almost wager my children's lives that they would be offended and disagree with you. I think you are not reading my posts. How can you say they are Judeo-Christian when they were not Christians(the ones you quoted).

[Q]As far as Jefferson, Adams etc being moralist, yeh they were, but their morals were rooted in Judeo-Christian philosiphy. As far as the 55 people who were responsible for framing the constitution, from everything I have read, that would be true of the majority of them as well. [/Q]

You did not quote them. You quoted Adams, Jefferson, and Washington. The only one that could be argued believed in Christianity would be Washington.

[Q]As far as their being Diest just because someone does not accept the diety of Christ does not mean they do not embrace His teachings. [/Q]

Jefferson ripped the pages out of the old testament, cut them up, and created his own bible by cutting and pasting to get rid of DOGMA. You cannot label someone Judeo-Christian, a word used to align oneself with the founding fathers, to push an agenda. You would not call me a Christian today if I believed as Jefferson did. You would not label me as being Judeo-Christian.
 
Dreadsox said:


I would almost wager my children's lives that they would be offended and disagree with you. I think you are not reading my posts. How can you say they are Judeo-Christian when they were not Christians(the ones you quoted).

[Q]As far as Jefferson, Adams etc being moralist, yeh they were, but their morals were rooted in Judeo-Christian philosiphy. As far as the 55 people who were responsible for framing the constitution, from everything I have read, that would be true of the majority of them as well. [/Q]

You did not quote them. You quoted Adams, Jefferson, and Washington. The only one that could be argued believed in Christianity would be Washington.

[Q]As far as their being Diest just because someone does not accept the diety of Christ does not mean they do not embrace His teachings. [/Q]

Jefferson ripped the pages out of the old testament, cut them up, and created his own bible by cutting and pasting to get rid of DOGMA. You cannot label someone Judeo-Christian, a word used to align oneself with the founding fathers, to push an agenda. You would not call me a Christian today if I believed as Jefferson did. You would not label me as being Judeo-Christian.

Ok im going to play trivia for a bit soon so I have to hurry....

The ones I quoted? Dread I put a link that has several quotes from those who framed the Constitution, the 55.

I DID NOT SAY THERE WERE CHRISTIANS. Ok??

I will ask you point blank. Did they or did they not use the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New as a guide for how to make laws for our new (at their time) country? Yes or no?

Ok off to Paltalk for trivia... take care...
 
Ok to add to what I said in my last post.

I am NOT labeling the founding fathers as Judeo-Christians. At what point did I do that? Where did I say these men were Christians? No where. A lot of them as you said were Diest as well as being Freemason. Both of which do not line up with Christianity.

What I have said all along is that the people who framed the constitution and the founding fathers approached lawmaking and government with Judeo-Christian beliefs of law.

No one has shown me evidence of that not being the case. Saying that they were not Christians does not do it. Saying that Jefferson ripped up the Bible and made his own doesn't either.

Show me where they did NOT use the bible as a guideline for how government should run and how laws should be made. I have shown where they have, all you have done is stated how they felt about Christianity. Again, that is not the issue. The issue is did they or did they not use Judeo-Christian beliefs of law as a means by which to lay down our law?

Are you trying to turn this into a religious debate about whether or not the country is a Christian one with a Christian heratige? Don't bother. I will be the first to say that our founding fathers WERE NOT Christians. I will be the first to say that no matter what statistics say, modern America does not embrace Christianity. So if you think I am pushing some sort of agenda you are wrong.

I am only stating a fact about how laws were initally devised in this country and so far, no one has shown me anything contrary to what I have read and heard for years.
 
Again, I am on a short time to adequately debate this.

I am saying point blank you can not say someone based things on Judeo-Christian beliefs when they were not Christian. It implies that the founding fathers were something they were not. it is a serious misrepresentation to imply that they were somehow beliving what Christians believe and teach today.

Did they believe in the morality message of Christ, yes. Is it represented in the constitution, NO.

The constitution draws mostly upon Greek and Roman philosophy.
 
Dreadsox said:
Again, I am on a short time to adequately debate this.

I am saying point blank you can not say someone based things on Judeo-Christian beliefs when they were not Christian. It implies that the founding fathers were something they were not. it is a serious misrepresentation to imply that they were somehow beliving what Christians believe and teach today.

Did they believe in the morality message of Christ, yes. Is it represented in the constitution, NO.

The constitution draws mostly upon Greek and Roman philosophy.

Ok I see what you are saying.

I do not see how I have said the founding fathers and todays Christians (which who are you talking about anyway when you are making your comparisons?) have any similarities. Because I say Judeo-Christian you think this? That is a misreprenstation of what I have been saying.

In saying they used Judeo-Christian beliefs (The Old Testament and the New) as a guide in how to make laws does not say they were Christians. It says that they took from both the Old Testament and the New in order to understand how law should be written and futherstill be used to govern a society. I never discounted the role which models of both the Greek and Roman governments played in the foundation of ours by the way. We are a Democratic-Republic after all. But that wasn't what started all of this.

What is at the center of all of this is, did these people use the Bible as a means by which to understand law and govern a country. You say no I think? I'm not sure actually. What I have asked for is that you or anyone show where that isn't true! I have limited knowledge on this. I don't have any books about the constitution lying around. I have read quite a bit on it in the past and have heard a lot about it as well. The sites I have looked at are pretty much in line with everything I have read independently of the internet. I love learning about the history of The Constitution, if you have more information that's great! So far though I haven't see any.
 
I have not given any information? I have yet to see a single place in the constitution that is represented by Judeo-Christian values.
 
If the only thing the founding fathers took from teh Bible is the morality of it.....it is not in the constitution.

The document does not define morals.
 
Dreadsox said:
If the only thing the founding fathers took from teh Bible is the morality of it.....it is not in the constitution.

The document does not define morals.

To this and the post before it....

You don't think laws are based on morals? Honestly? You do not think these people said the law of nature and God's law and man's law should agree? You honestly don't believe these men said that? Well I showed you where they did. I asked you to show me where that was not their philosiphy. You haven't. You have shown me your philosiphy on why you think they didn't. I am asking you to show me quotes from these men that state they DID NOT use the Bible as a guideline for lawmaking.

I asked you that point blank earlier. You answered point blankly with something to the effect of "You can not call the founding fathers Judeo-Christian when they were not Christians". That is not an answer to the question. That is putting words in my mouth first off, because at no point on this thread or the other did I say these men were Christians. All I said was they used Judeo-Christian beliefs in their apporach to law making and you turned that into my saying they were Christians. I even went further to say that most of them were, in fact, not Christians. Yet you still for some reason seem to think I believe that. Secondly, well it isn't an answer. It is a yes or no question. Did they or didn't they? You won't say yes or no. You will say something that is entirely different to an answer the question requires though.

Ask me a point blank question, I will answer if I can. If I can't I will say I don't know. If I don't know I will google it or go to the library or even look on my shelves to see if I have a book handy so that I can provide an answer of sorts. I won't however try to change the subject with non sequiturs or distort what is being said so that can I can take attention away from the intial question asked of me.
 
I am sorry...you are right...I am wrong.

There...feel better.:wink:

To claim The Constitution is a Judeo-Christian document....is wrong.
 
Dreadsox said:
I am sorry...you are right...I am wrong.

There...feel better.:wink:

To claim The Constitution is a Judeo-Christian document....is wrong.

What is the question dread? Is it that the Constitution is a Judeo-Christian document or is it that those who framed it were basing it on Judeo-Christian philosiphy?

Edited to add I am genuinely interested in knowing more than I do about the history of the Constitution.

The statements I have made are based on things I have read, things I learned in High School, and things I have heard from various sources through the years.

I would like to know of other credible resources out there that counter what I have seen in history books.
 
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OK..I am seriously not able to do this justice. I have said that numerous times, and I have tried to be nice. You have not shown ANY piece of the constitution which demonstrates your belief.

I will now link you to what I consider to be the best Constitutional site out there. I am not naive enough to say that religious morals were not a part of the founding fathers belief system. I do not however, consider the Constitution to be a Judeo-Christian Document.

This site is a wealth of information, linking to historical documents, and the ACTUAL transcripts of the Madison from the constitutional convention. There is not a mention of the BIBLE in the debate about the Executive Branch of the governement during the debate. Not one mention of the verse you site infulencing them in this realm.

I do not have the time to go into detail. Here are the links to the site. I could be lost in there for hours and hours.

Have fun.

http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm
http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/primarysources.html

I will not be back into this debate until tomorrow.
 
Dreadsox said:
OK..I am seriously not able to do this justice. I have said that numerous times, and I have tried to be nice. You have not shown ANY piece of the constitution which demonstrates your belief.

I will now link you to what I consider to be the best Constitutional site out there. I am not naive enough to say that religious morals were not a part of the founding fathers belief system. I do not however, consider the Constitution to be a Judeo-Christian Document.

This site is a wealth of information, linking to historical documents, and the ACTUAL transcripts of the Madison from the constitutional convention. There is not a mention of the BIBLE in the debate about the Executive Branch of the governement during the debate. Not one mention of the verse you site infulencing them in this realm.

I do not have the time to go into detail. Here are the links to the site. I could be lost in there for hours and hours.

Have fun.

http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm
http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/primarysources.html

I will not be back into this debate until tomorrow.

Ok these are the kinds of things I have been asking for. Thank you for the links.

As for the other statements....

You have tried to be nice to me??? Why the hell wouldn't you be? What have I said or done now that would cause you to be anything other than nice? I certainly haven't been anything but civil if not out and out nice about this whole discussion.

If you consider my asking you to answer a yes or no question and then your not doing it and then my calling you on it not to be nice then I can't offer much in the way of an explination.

I never said that the Constitution was a Judeo-Christian document dread. Show me where I said that. All I said was that these people when deciding to lay out the law they were guided by Judeo-Christian beliefs about how laws should be determined. Judeo-Christian as I have clarified on MORE than one occassion is that of taking from both the Old Testament and the New. If this link can shed light on that good stuff!

I appreciate your providing these links because again, that is what I asked for. Credible resources that can show me things contrary to everything I have read or been taught or heard.

I will see you tomorrow to continue the discussion.
 
Also one more thing...

This whole discussion steamed from the Death Penalty topic....

The death penalty is determined by individual states. The Constitution garners the states rights to either enforce captial punishment or not enforce it. States rights etc.

And in that case, the death penalty in and of itself is without question a relgious based law.

At any rate that is something that I have been meaning to say all along.....
 
thacraic said:
Also one more thing...



And in that case, the death penalty in and of itself is without question a relgious based law.


I thought Christians believed Jesus paid for our sins?
 
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