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Old 01-18-2005, 07:02 PM   #31
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Originally posted by thacraic
I never said that the Constitution was a Judeo-Christian document dread. Show me where I said that. All I said was that these people when deciding to lay out the law they were guided by Judeo-Christian beliefs about how laws should be determined. Judeo-Christian as I have clarified on MORE than one occassion is that of taking from both the Old Testament and the New. If this link can shed light on that good stuff!
What exactly are Judeo Christian beliefs as to how laws are to be carried out? I am not sure I understand what this means.

Show me EXACTLY where there is one rule established in the Constitution of the United States of America that can be associated as a Judeo-Christian belief.

You quoted the rule about Monarchy before....and I provided links to the direct record of the convention from James Madison, considered to be the key author of the constitution in which NOT once is the Bible, Old Testament, New testament or scriptural verse recorded in the debate over monarchy.
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Old 01-18-2005, 07:06 PM   #32
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Originally posted by thacraic



I will ask you point blank. Did they or did they not use the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New as a guide for how to make laws for our new (at their time) country? Yes or no?

No...there is my take. I have just returned from church. I have scanned through almost the entire transcript that James Madison recorded at the Constitutional Convention. If I have time tonight, I will finish it. No, they were not according to Madison using the bible in their meetings.

Interesting side bar, apparently there was more religion mixed in with the Confederation that was formed before the constitution. We all know how that worked out.
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Old 01-18-2005, 07:18 PM   #33
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[Q]The death penalty is determined by individual states. The Constitution garners the states rights to either enforce captial punishment or not enforce it. States rights etc.

And in that case, the death penalty in and of itself is without question a relgious based law.
[/Q]

Pretend I am really slow and work with 9 year olds.

How does this equate?
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Old 01-18-2005, 08:45 PM   #34
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Originally posted by deep



I thought Christians believed Jesus paid for our sins?
He did. What does that have to do with the death penalty being based on religious law?
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Old 01-18-2005, 08:46 PM   #35
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That has to be one of the craziest statements I've read in here in a long time.
Why? What are the origins of the death penalty then? On what is it base?
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Old 01-18-2005, 08:51 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
[Q]The death penalty is determined by individual states. The Constitution garners the states rights to either enforce captial punishment or not enforce it. States rights etc.

And in that case, the death penalty in and of itself is without question a relgious based law.
[/Q]

Pretend I am really slow and work with 9 year olds.

How does this equate?
Well it equates in the sense of that is the whole reason this discussion started.

I said that the reason the death penalty turns into a religious/politicial discussion is because the origins of the death penalty are religious.

Then it went into this huge discussion about which laws in this country are based on religion.

In truth the constitution should have never even factored in to the initial debate because of the manner in which the death penalty is carried out on a state to state basis.

Anyway on to you other post.
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Old 01-18-2005, 08:52 PM   #37
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Why? What are the origins of the death penalty then? On what is it base?
Revenge. It's human nature to punish someone to the fullest extent when they take a life. So death penalty is a result of human nature. Where does religion come in? People were being killed for killing before "an eye for an eye".

To say it's based on religion when this is one of the most controverisal issues amongst religion is ludicrous.
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:08 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


What exactly are Judeo Christian beliefs as to how laws are to be carried out? I am not sure I understand what this means.

Show me EXACTLY where there is one rule established in the Constitution of the United States of America that can be associated as a Judeo-Christian belief.

You quoted the rule about Monarchy before....and I provided links to the direct record of the convention from James Madison, considered to be the key author of the constitution in which NOT once is the Bible, Old Testament, New testament or scriptural verse recorded in the debate over monarchy.
Judeo-Christian beliefs as how laws are to be made and carried out etc is the philosiphy that God's law and man's law should be in harmony. That is found in the old and new testament.

I showed you EXACTLY where the people framing the Constitution held those beliefs (and I mean the link which provided quotes from the long list of people you pasted, the 55 delegates). I asked also, that with these people holding those beliefs would one not logically conclude that it would factor into their appraoch to law making. If that is not the case then why are people today so up in arms about Christians who hold office? People are willing to say that those who embrace Christian beliefs will allow that to cloud their judgement as it pertains to decisions concerning our entire country? It happened today but not then? I am looking at this in very black and white terms I suppose.

Are you asking me if, for example, the ten commandments are present in the Constitution, then no they are not. If you are asking me if the people who went about framing the constitution used the belief that God's law and man's law should be in harmony than yes, and I do not see how that is not a true statement. Is that what I have been saying all along or not?

I will look through that link you posted. It is very concise and I would agree probably the best source of information (online that is) regarding the Constitution. I will confess I have not had a chance to really give it enough attention. But it is what I asked for.... a credible source.
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:12 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Revenge. It's human nature to punish someone to the fullest extent when they take a life. So death penalty is a result of human nature. Where does religion come in? People were being killed for killing before "an eye for an eye".

To say it's based on religion when this is one of the most controverisal issues amongst religion is ludicrous.
People were being killed before "an eye for eye" came about yeh of course. However the laws on the books in our country came after the fact. On what were THOSE laws based????
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:24 PM   #40
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Originally posted by thacraic


People were being killed before "an eye for eye" came about yeh of course. However the laws on the books in our country came after the fact. On what were THOSE laws based????
They weren't laws it was revenge then. You still haven't shown a speck of why it's a religious based law!!!

Do you honestly think before the Bible humans were just letting murderers go?
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:42 PM   #41
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


They weren't laws it was revenge then. You still haven't shown a speck of why it's a religious based law!!!

Do you honestly think before the Bible humans were just letting murderers go?

Ohhhhhhhhhhh I see now! When the death penalty was introduced into law in our country (in colonial times) it was not law it was just random acts of revenge. Nothing was carried out by the governing bodies of the colonies which enforced the death penalty that was part of the law. Further on down the line when we were no longer colonies, states carried out the death penalty. But then again it was just revenge and not in the law books. So therefore that is why these laws are not based on the relgious principle of an eye for an eye. Gotch BVS.

And no I have never said other systems of government throughout histroy did not influence the law making in this country. Never said that so twist what you will, you will still not be able to show where I have stated that.
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:51 PM   #42
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Ohhhhhhhhhhh I see now! When the death penalty was introduced into law in our country (in colonial times) it was not law it was just random acts of revenge. Nothing was carried out by the governing bodies of the colonies which enforced the death penalty that was part of the law. Further on down the line when we were no longer colonies, states carried out the death penalty. But then again it was just revenge and not in the law books. So therefore that is why these laws are not based on the relgious principle of an eye for an eye. Gotch BVS.

And no I have never said other systems of government throughout histroy did not influence the law making in this country. Never said that so twist what you will, you will still not be able to show where I have stated that.
I misread you post and thought why was there "death penalty" before written law. I've re-read your post and I go back to my original post. HUMAN NATURE!!!

But you still haven't shown me where it's religion based.
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:02 PM   #43
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Originally posted by beli
American law? Or USA law? Many American countries laws are Christian based.
It's usually me who points things like this out and I've grown tired of attempting to correct something that is very unlikely to be changed.
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:07 PM   #44
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I misread you post and thought why was there "death penalty" before written law. I've re-read your post and I go back to my original post. HUMAN NATURE!!!

You don't believe the origin of the death penalty in this country is rooted in religous belief, fine. I am not even going to go in to it. You are saying human nature, ok thats fine. Sounds good to me. I am not going to go round and round anymore about things. (I have mixed feelings about the death penalty by the way, so I am not saying that it is rooted in religious belief because I am trying to justify it).

Dread if you want to reply to anything I have said since your last posted do so at thacraic@yahoo.com If you want to ask me more questions on my views feel free to do so as well. I am going to devote a good bit of time to that link (The Madison one). It is reallllly goooooood.

But to be completely honest I can see that this discussion is starting to get like the other thread, steering off topic, and it was my fault this time with my comment about the death penalty.

At any rate I just realized that I have spent collectively, over this past day, hourrrrrrrrrs at this forum. For me, with everything I have going on, that's not a good thing. I have got to stop doing that! If you can't email I understand. But I would love to continue the discussion. Anyhoo your call.
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:59 AM   #45
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I showed you EXACTLY where the people framing the Constitution held those beliefs (and I mean the link which provided quotes from the long list of people you pasted, the 55 delegates). I asked also, that with these people holding those beliefs would one not logically conclude that it would factor into their appraoch to law making. If that is not the case then why are people today so up in arms about Christians who hold office? People are willing to say that those who embrace Christian beliefs will allow that to cloud their judgement as it pertains to decisions concerning our entire country? It happened today but not then? I am looking at this in very black and white terms I suppose.
You showed me quotes taken out of context of a whole document.

The George Washington quote for example had NOTHING to do with the framing of the Constitution. It was his farwell address.

If you want to use quotes taken out of context, verses the actual transcript of the debate, in which there is no reference to the Bible, Old testament, or New testament, fine.

Do the Bible's Morals Guide me through my daily life....yes....Does that make everything I do Judeo-Christian....no.

When the Old and New Testament are not mentioned in the transcript of the account in my opinion, it trumps your source of quotes taken a different points in the founding father's lives.
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