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Old 01-18-2005, 06:28 AM   #16
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Originally posted by thacraic
[B]Hello Dread,

To everything you posted....

Never once did I say these men were Christians or even Judeo-Christians. Ever. I said they were religious and that they used Judeo-Christian principles in their lawmaking. That is a truthful statement and that is what people were disagreeing with.
I would almost wager my children's lives that they would be offended and disagree with you. I think you are not reading my posts. How can you say they are Judeo-Christian when they were not Christians(the ones you quoted).

[Q]As far as Jefferson, Adams etc being moralist, yeh they were, but their morals were rooted in Judeo-Christian philosiphy. As far as the 55 people who were responsible for framing the constitution, from everything I have read, that would be true of the majority of them as well. [/Q]

You did not quote them. You quoted Adams, Jefferson, and Washington. The only one that could be argued believed in Christianity would be Washington.

[Q]As far as their being Diest just because someone does not accept the diety of Christ does not mean they do not embrace His teachings. [/Q]

Jefferson ripped the pages out of the old testament, cut them up, and created his own bible by cutting and pasting to get rid of DOGMA. You cannot label someone Judeo-Christian, a word used to align oneself with the founding fathers, to push an agenda. You would not call me a Christian today if I believed as Jefferson did. You would not label me as being Judeo-Christian.
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Old 01-18-2005, 06:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I would almost wager my children's lives that they would be offended and disagree with you. I think you are not reading my posts. How can you say they are Judeo-Christian when they were not Christians(the ones you quoted).

[Q]As far as Jefferson, Adams etc being moralist, yeh they were, but their morals were rooted in Judeo-Christian philosiphy. As far as the 55 people who were responsible for framing the constitution, from everything I have read, that would be true of the majority of them as well. [/Q]

You did not quote them. You quoted Adams, Jefferson, and Washington. The only one that could be argued believed in Christianity would be Washington.

[Q]As far as their being Diest just because someone does not accept the diety of Christ does not mean they do not embrace His teachings. [/Q]

Jefferson ripped the pages out of the old testament, cut them up, and created his own bible by cutting and pasting to get rid of DOGMA. You cannot label someone Judeo-Christian, a word used to align oneself with the founding fathers, to push an agenda. You would not call me a Christian today if I believed as Jefferson did. You would not label me as being Judeo-Christian.
Ok im going to play trivia for a bit soon so I have to hurry....

The ones I quoted? Dread I put a link that has several quotes from those who framed the Constitution, the 55.

I DID NOT SAY THERE WERE CHRISTIANS. Ok??

I will ask you point blank. Did they or did they not use the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New as a guide for how to make laws for our new (at their time) country? Yes or no?

Ok off to Paltalk for trivia... take care...
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:20 AM   #18
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Ok to add to what I said in my last post.

I am NOT labeling the founding fathers as Judeo-Christians. At what point did I do that? Where did I say these men were Christians? No where. A lot of them as you said were Diest as well as being Freemason. Both of which do not line up with Christianity.

What I have said all along is that the people who framed the constitution and the founding fathers approached lawmaking and government with Judeo-Christian beliefs of law.

No one has shown me evidence of that not being the case. Saying that they were not Christians does not do it. Saying that Jefferson ripped up the Bible and made his own doesn't either.

Show me where they did NOT use the bible as a guideline for how government should run and how laws should be made. I have shown where they have, all you have done is stated how they felt about Christianity. Again, that is not the issue. The issue is did they or did they not use Judeo-Christian beliefs of law as a means by which to lay down our law?

Are you trying to turn this into a religious debate about whether or not the country is a Christian one with a Christian heratige? Don't bother. I will be the first to say that our founding fathers WERE NOT Christians. I will be the first to say that no matter what statistics say, modern America does not embrace Christianity. So if you think I am pushing some sort of agenda you are wrong.

I am only stating a fact about how laws were initally devised in this country and so far, no one has shown me anything contrary to what I have read and heard for years.
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:27 AM   #19
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Again, I am on a short time to adequately debate this.

I am saying point blank you can not say someone based things on Judeo-Christian beliefs when they were not Christian. It implies that the founding fathers were something they were not. it is a serious misrepresentation to imply that they were somehow beliving what Christians believe and teach today.

Did they believe in the morality message of Christ, yes. Is it represented in the constitution, NO.

The constitution draws mostly upon Greek and Roman philosophy.
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Again, I am on a short time to adequately debate this.

I am saying point blank you can not say someone based things on Judeo-Christian beliefs when they were not Christian. It implies that the founding fathers were something they were not. it is a serious misrepresentation to imply that they were somehow beliving what Christians believe and teach today.

Did they believe in the morality message of Christ, yes. Is it represented in the constitution, NO.

The constitution draws mostly upon Greek and Roman philosophy.
Ok I see what you are saying.

I do not see how I have said the founding fathers and todays Christians (which who are you talking about anyway when you are making your comparisons?) have any similarities. Because I say Judeo-Christian you think this? That is a misreprenstation of what I have been saying.

In saying they used Judeo-Christian beliefs (The Old Testament and the New) as a guide in how to make laws does not say they were Christians. It says that they took from both the Old Testament and the New in order to understand how law should be written and futherstill be used to govern a society. I never discounted the role which models of both the Greek and Roman governments played in the foundation of ours by the way. We are a Democratic-Republic after all. But that wasn't what started all of this.

What is at the center of all of this is, did these people use the Bible as a means by which to understand law and govern a country. You say no I think? I'm not sure actually. What I have asked for is that you or anyone show where that isn't true! I have limited knowledge on this. I don't have any books about the constitution lying around. I have read quite a bit on it in the past and have heard a lot about it as well. The sites I have looked at are pretty much in line with everything I have read independently of the internet. I love learning about the history of The Constitution, if you have more information that's great! So far though I haven't see any.
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:47 AM   #21
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I have not given any information? I have yet to see a single place in the constitution that is represented by Judeo-Christian values.
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:49 AM   #22
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If the only thing the founding fathers took from teh Bible is the morality of it.....it is not in the constitution.

The document does not define morals.
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Old 01-18-2005, 11:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
If the only thing the founding fathers took from teh Bible is the morality of it.....it is not in the constitution.

The document does not define morals.
To this and the post before it....

You don't think laws are based on morals? Honestly? You do not think these people said the law of nature and God's law and man's law should agree? You honestly don't believe these men said that? Well I showed you where they did. I asked you to show me where that was not their philosiphy. You haven't. You have shown me your philosiphy on why you think they didn't. I am asking you to show me quotes from these men that state they DID NOT use the Bible as a guideline for lawmaking.

I asked you that point blank earlier. You answered point blankly with something to the effect of "You can not call the founding fathers Judeo-Christian when they were not Christians". That is not an answer to the question. That is putting words in my mouth first off, because at no point on this thread or the other did I say these men were Christians. All I said was they used Judeo-Christian beliefs in their apporach to law making and you turned that into my saying they were Christians. I even went further to say that most of them were, in fact, not Christians. Yet you still for some reason seem to think I believe that. Secondly, well it isn't an answer. It is a yes or no question. Did they or didn't they? You won't say yes or no. You will say something that is entirely different to an answer the question requires though.

Ask me a point blank question, I will answer if I can. If I can't I will say I don't know. If I don't know I will google it or go to the library or even look on my shelves to see if I have a book handy so that I can provide an answer of sorts. I won't however try to change the subject with non sequiturs or distort what is being said so that can I can take attention away from the intial question asked of me.
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Old 01-18-2005, 12:25 PM   #24
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I am sorry...you are right...I am wrong.

There...feel better.

To claim The Constitution is a Judeo-Christian document....is wrong.
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Old 01-18-2005, 01:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am sorry...you are right...I am wrong.

There...feel better.

To claim The Constitution is a Judeo-Christian document....is wrong.
What is the question dread? Is it that the Constitution is a Judeo-Christian document or is it that those who framed it were basing it on Judeo-Christian philosiphy?

Edited to add I am genuinely interested in knowing more than I do about the history of the Constitution.

The statements I have made are based on things I have read, things I learned in High School, and things I have heard from various sources through the years.

I would like to know of other credible resources out there that counter what I have seen in history books.
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Old 01-18-2005, 01:57 PM   #26
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OK..I am seriously not able to do this justice. I have said that numerous times, and I have tried to be nice. You have not shown ANY piece of the constitution which demonstrates your belief.

I will now link you to what I consider to be the best Constitutional site out there. I am not naive enough to say that religious morals were not a part of the founding fathers belief system. I do not however, consider the Constitution to be a Judeo-Christian Document.

This site is a wealth of information, linking to historical documents, and the ACTUAL transcripts of the Madison from the constitutional convention. There is not a mention of the BIBLE in the debate about the Executive Branch of the governement during the debate. Not one mention of the verse you site infulencing them in this realm.

I do not have the time to go into detail. Here are the links to the site. I could be lost in there for hours and hours.

Have fun.

http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm
http://www.constitution.org/primarys...rysources.html

I will not be back into this debate until tomorrow.
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Old 01-18-2005, 05:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
OK..I am seriously not able to do this justice. I have said that numerous times, and I have tried to be nice. You have not shown ANY piece of the constitution which demonstrates your belief.

I will now link you to what I consider to be the best Constitutional site out there. I am not naive enough to say that religious morals were not a part of the founding fathers belief system. I do not however, consider the Constitution to be a Judeo-Christian Document.

This site is a wealth of information, linking to historical documents, and the ACTUAL transcripts of the Madison from the constitutional convention. There is not a mention of the BIBLE in the debate about the Executive Branch of the governement during the debate. Not one mention of the verse you site infulencing them in this realm.

I do not have the time to go into detail. Here are the links to the site. I could be lost in there for hours and hours.

Have fun.

http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm
http://www.constitution.org/primarys...rysources.html

I will not be back into this debate until tomorrow.
Ok these are the kinds of things I have been asking for. Thank you for the links.

As for the other statements....

You have tried to be nice to me??? Why the hell wouldn't you be? What have I said or done now that would cause you to be anything other than nice? I certainly haven't been anything but civil if not out and out nice about this whole discussion.

If you consider my asking you to answer a yes or no question and then your not doing it and then my calling you on it not to be nice then I can't offer much in the way of an explination.

I never said that the Constitution was a Judeo-Christian document dread. Show me where I said that. All I said was that these people when deciding to lay out the law they were guided by Judeo-Christian beliefs about how laws should be determined. Judeo-Christian as I have clarified on MORE than one occassion is that of taking from both the Old Testament and the New. If this link can shed light on that good stuff!

I appreciate your providing these links because again, that is what I asked for. Credible resources that can show me things contrary to everything I have read or been taught or heard.

I will see you tomorrow to continue the discussion.
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Old 01-18-2005, 05:32 PM   #28
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Also one more thing...

This whole discussion steamed from the Death Penalty topic....

The death penalty is determined by individual states. The Constitution garners the states rights to either enforce captial punishment or not enforce it. States rights etc.

And in that case, the death penalty in and of itself is without question a relgious based law.

At any rate that is something that I have been meaning to say all along.....
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Old 01-18-2005, 05:56 PM   #29
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Originally posted by thacraic
Also one more thing...



And in that case, the death penalty in and of itself is without question a relgious based law.

I thought Christians believed Jesus paid for our sins?
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Old 01-18-2005, 06:01 PM   #30
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Originally posted by thacraic

And in that case, the death penalty in and of itself is without question a relgious based law.
That has to be one of the craziest statements I've read in here in a long time.
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