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Old 05-12-2004, 12:13 PM   #16
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Funny, wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia produce the same level of hatred.

Eliminating poverty and raising education levels will not take the hatred towards infidels out of the system.
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:19 PM   #17
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I don't know what to say..last night watching the news I just felt so deeply depressed

Sometimes it feels like "humanity" has sunk so low that it is truly hopeless
I agree. This story makes me so sick.

There's a photograph of his dad sitting on the lawn at their house, obviously sobbing, being comforted by his brother (I think it was his brother). This man lost his child in an especially barbaric and horrible way. And to have this FILMED and all over the Internet...my heart so goes out to his family.

Peace On Earth, we need it now...
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:36 PM   #18
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His poor family.
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:38 PM   #19
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Yes Diane, I saw that picture too..it is Nick's brother David




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Old 05-12-2004, 12:45 PM   #20
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Funny, wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia produce the same level of hatred.

Eliminating poverty and raising education levels will not take the hatred towards infidels out of the system.
I agree! Too many Westerners seem to think money will solve everything. But they are not a materialistic society like we are. That's not going to help. Their beliefs are imbedded in their religion, their culture and their society. A nice house in the suburbs, two cars in the garage and a TV in every room will not change them, and it's not what they want. What do they want? They want to kill the infidel, the American, the Jew, and be glorified by Allah for it! That's how they think, it's been like that for centuries, and there is no way we are going to change it with money. Remember, they HATE our society and don't want to be like us!
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Old 05-12-2004, 01:05 PM   #21
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I would disagree. Money always weakens an ideal. Look at Christianity. The entire Bible is written from a subordinate hegemonic position, so, to make up for their lack of worldly power, they empower themselves with godly power. The coming of the Messiah in the OT was to be the unification of godly and worldly power. The Messiah was supposed to wealthy and powerful to lead an army to vanquish their enemies and make Israel the most powerful Kingdom on Earth. As Jesus was far more passive and never intended to subvert the Roman Empire, He was rejected by Judaism.

Fast forward 300 years to Emperor Constantine and Christianity gets what it, frankly, never expected: legitimacy, wealth, and worldly power. Money and power corrupted Christianity; clearly, ideals are no match for greed. The success of the Reformation, thus, was the fact that it was a subordinate hegemony that, due to its lack of worldly power, could use ideals to empower itself with godly principles.

In short: throw money at the Middle East. Make the people of the Middle East wealthier than they could have ever imagined. Give them education, give them employment, give them disposable income. Then their religiosity will go the way of the dodo.

Perhaps this is harsh, but this is the real world, and, as much as I think Ayn Rand can be very harsh, the power of greed is one thing that I think she was right about. Thus, any altruism, any political entity, any charity...all of it must be fashioned in a manner that appeals to humanity's insatiable lust for wealth.

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Old 05-12-2004, 01:07 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Wild Angel
Remember, they HATE our society and don't want to be like us!
this is the key statement... some people say throw money at them, some people say educate them... why in the hell would "education" work? what sort of education is going to change a culture built around a faith that's been around for thousands of years? what are you going to educate them on? that they're wrong to believe in that faith? oh yeah sure... that'll really work. that's just going to get them even more pissed off. they already believe us to be crudaders. so now the great satan is going to educate them? good... making us look like missionaries out to convert the brown people is reeeeeeally going to cut down on the attacks and their hatred towards us.

honestly... maybe keeping saddam in power was the only true way to keep the region stable. maybe the only way to control a madman is with an even bigger madman... someone who does not care if he slaughters thousands of innocents just to get to the few insurgents who threaten his power.

and on a side note... osama bin laden is extremely wealthy. yes... wealth has diluted his true religion into the bastardized form of islam he practices today. but it hasn't stopped his hatred towards us one iota.
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Old 05-12-2004, 01:24 PM   #23
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They hate us, because they are angry that they are *not* us. They resent our wealth and our power, because they do not possess it.

Bin Laden is in a minority, though. In spite of his wealth, he chose his principles over his status. There are those people, but look who he recruits to carry out his terror? Uneducated and desperately poor Muslims. I would bet that, if they possessed a higher standard of living, they would never have joined or believed in Al Qaeda.

Also, do not paint all of Islam with the same brush. Historically, Islam was both an intelligent and a relatively tolerant religion, especially when compared to Imperial Europe. The Ottoman Empire was a historic refuge for Jews, who, in contrast, were being killed in Europe. This is the same religion that generated Ataturk in Turkey, who created a secular Muslim state.

The strongly fanatical element of Islam that we see today is mostly a 20th century construct.

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Old 05-12-2004, 01:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Funny, wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia produce the same level of hatred.

Eliminating poverty and raising education levels will not take the hatred towards infidels out of the system.
True. But just for the record, Saudi Arabia was a poor country when it built up its Wahhabist system. This was a collaboration between a tribal Arab aristocracy and a fiery and primitive Sunni reform movement. This was in the eighteenth century. It wasn't until the development of the oil industry in the middle of the twentieth century that Saudi Arabia became wealthy. I think perhaps the solution to this problem is beyond comprehension right now. In the real world problems don't always have solutions.
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Old 05-12-2004, 01:37 PM   #25
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Originally posted by melon
They hate us, because they are angry that they are *not* us. They resent our wealth and our power, because they do not possess it.

Bin Laden is in a minority, though. In spite of his wealth, he chose his principles over his status. There are those people, but look who he recruits to carry out his terror? Uneducated and desperately poor Muslims. I would bet that, if they possessed a higher standard of living, they would never have joined or believed in Al Qaeda.

Also, do not paint all of Islam with the same brush. Historically, Islam was both an intelligent and a relatively tolerant religion, especially when compared to Imperial Europe. The Ottoman Empire was a historic refuge for Jews, who, in contrast, were being killed in Europe. This is the same religion that generated Ataturk in Turkey, who created a secular Muslim state.

The strongly fanatical element of Islam that we see today is mostly a 20th century construct.

Melon
you're right about the good that islam has brought to the world, and i do not put all of islam into the same boat.

i know you dislike organized religion, and frankly i don't blame you. i'm not a big fan myself. but i believe you are severly underestimating the power of faith in a large number of these people... one needs more than just a dislike for our power and wealth to find just cause to flying a 747 into a building, or wrapping a bomb around ones waist and stepping foot onto a bus, or into a club or a resturant. so while there are always people in any religion who can be swayed by the almighty dollar, there are also those who are powered only in their belief of the almighty, or the almighty as they see him/her through their own eyes.
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Old 05-12-2004, 01:50 PM   #26
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Originally posted by melon
They hate us, because they are angry that they are *not* us. They resent our wealth and our power, because they do not possess it.
How can they resent our lifestyle when they go to such extremes to stifle western influences? They have plenty of wealth and power through oil. If change is to occur, it must occur from within.
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Old 05-12-2004, 01:53 PM   #27
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I do not believe it is a conscious emotion, though. I believe that it is an unconscious coping mechanism. People crave dignity, and they will get it anywhere they can find it. So, if the present is a living hell, they will get their paradise in heaven. If that takes flying a 747 into a building, in their eyes, they'll do it.

There will always be the fanatical elements, but look at the Western world. Europe is peaceful, and if you looked at the history of Europe over the centuries, you'd realize that this is nothing short of miraculous. But look at their standard of living, and compare Eastern and Western Europe. The East is getting much much better, and I am optimistic about it becoming even more stable as time goes on. But what makes the East increasingly stable is their increasing wealth.

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Old 05-12-2004, 01:54 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
How can they resent our lifestyle when they go to such extremes to stifle western influences? They have plenty of wealth and power through oil. If change is to occur, it must occur from within.
No, a core elite has plenty of wealth and power through oil. The average citizen doesn't benefit from oil in these nations, and many of the governments in these nations are too unstable to utilize the oil wealth properly.

The governments that do rail against the U.S. do it merely to maintain their grip on their unhappy populations. For them to stop hating the U.S. would be to open themselves up to revolt from within. They keep their populations focused on a scapegoat. To be fair, though, the U.S. does the same thing, and the GOP is the master of scapegoating. Keeping the U.S. focused on "Defense of Marriage Acts" keeps the public from focusing on Bush's failures as a president. Thus, rather than making the presidential election a political issue, it is now a "moral obligation" to vote for Bush. Likewise, if you are a Muslim against America, you have a "moral obligation" to support the most fanatical element against America.

When Bush slaps sanctions on Syria (which he is expected to do very soon), he will only inflame the nation into fanaticism and open a whole new can of worms.

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Old 05-12-2004, 02:01 PM   #29
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There is a generation of Saudis who don't have to work. Something about idle hands comes to mind.....
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Old 05-12-2004, 02:17 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I do not believe it is a conscious emotion, though. I believe that it is an unconscious coping mechanism. People crave dignity, and they will get it anywhere they can find it. So, if the present is a living hell, they will get their paradise in heaven. If that takes flying a 747 into a building, in their eyes, they'll do it.


Melon
But wasn't Muhammed Atta's father a wealthy Cairo physician?

When slaves in the US sang spirituals in the fields, they had no hope for their lives on earth as slaves but looked forward to happiness and freedom in the hereafter. A lot of people use their beliefs as hope like that. But I don't think this is the same thing at all. It's their very way, their very being, to reject the western ways and materialism. No, I don't believe they can be changed with money. If modern times alone haven't driven them from their primitive mindset, there is no hope for that.

Once, years ago, I was watching a hijacking unfold live on TV. This was in Syria or Lebanon, I forgot which. The reporters were relaying everything that was said. The officials were trying to bargain with them and asked them how much money they wanted (that was a hijacker's usual demand) They replied that they didn't want money, they wanted to die and go to glory! If they think that way, and it is so deeply in embedded in their minds, consciousness, culture and lives, and has been for generations, you are not going to suddenly change their entire society in a few years with money.

I also heard an interview, recent and post 9-11, with Arabic college students from wealthy families being educated in the west who said they held the same beliefs as some of the terrorists, if Islam demands they kill the infidel, the infidel must die. These were no wild ragheads in the desert either.

They DO hate us because they are not like us. But they don't want to be like us. They hate what we are. We are against their religion, and they would feel they would be damned forever for being like us.
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