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Old 11-13-2001, 03:36 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marko:
who are those three? I guess that Holy Joe is one - he openly addmites it, but other 2? C'mon let us be honest and open
that's the point of the game. Over the next couple of days he will drop hints. Whoever guesses right gets to lock any thread of their choice!

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Old 11-13-2001, 07:32 AM   #32
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I can't believe I actually read all of that, but I did. However, I wouldn't know where to begin a reply. Sorry!
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Old 11-13-2001, 10:10 AM   #33
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Originally posted by nintendan:
"I just mentioned that I don't understand why anyone would be a USA-hater."

Here are some reasons why some people are.

Good grief, Mr. Long Wind , I don't understand why you went through the trouble of posting that laundry list, when I clearly said that I know America has its imperfections, as do other countries. And it was that "as do other other countries" part that made me wonder why people single out America to hate. Therefore, your list really doesn't make any difference here. I still don't know why, among all the imperfect countries in the world, people choose America to hate the most. I could certainly come up with my list on several countries if you'd like, but that wouldn't have anything to do with the original post. Let's see...Mexico, Russia (woohoo wouldn't that be a long one - let's not forget about those homicidal madmen Stalin and Lenin), Canada, England, France, Germany (Hitler!), and the list could go on and on and on.
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Old 11-13-2001, 10:14 AM   #34
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Originally posted by mug222:
and still find a kernel of superiority--the notion that Christianity will somehow save the world from whatever wretched condition it now finds itself in. But of course that's what you, as a Christian, would think! Nothing new that I'm arguing against, so I apologize.
mug222, that's okay. I'm glad you see that I intended no harm. It's just that that's what Christians do - we find comfort in being in agreement in prayer with other Christians. And yes, as a Christian, I do believe that only my religion is correct. Otherwise, why bother believing in it at all. Actually, I don't believe in the power of Christianity to save the world. I believe in the power of Christ to save the world. Christians often get in the way, sadly. Thanks for understanding.

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Old 11-13-2001, 10:23 AM   #35
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Originally posted by melon:
With all due respect (as I do not wish to cause an argument), your last major argument seethed with self-righteous and exclusionist implications. Not exactly a message that will win converts, but your honesty is always appreciated.
Eh? I understand why you would consider part of it as "exclusionist implications" (Christianity is exclusionary of other religions, so it's exclusionist in that aspect, but the door is open for anyone to follow Jesus, so it's anything but exclusionist in that aspect), but I don't understand where you're getting the self-righteous bit from. Did I say I'm better than anyone else? No. In fact, I believe I said the opposite. Did I say I'm holier than anyone else? No. And please notice, also, that I used the term "we" when referring to the world's sins. There was nothing self-righteous about my posts at all. It was, quite simply, a call for prayer to others wo believe as I do.
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Old 11-13-2001, 04:35 PM   #36
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80sU2isBest;

I have lost faith in all religions, and renounce them completely for being just another label that distinguishes one person from another. It has always been my personal belief that religion kills faith and causes more problems than it solves by creating differences as it has been doing for so long. I do not think that Christianity is the way, anymore than any other religion.

However, I do believe in God with all my soul. I believe in a God, and I believe in the human spirit as an echo of God; I believe in God and hope to attain him in some way throughout my life-time. Yes, I do pray to him.

In your eyes, is my prayer good enough for you?

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Old 11-13-2001, 04:42 PM   #37
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Originally posted by melon:
How difficult it is for me, a fairly non-traditional, radical Catholic, to shrug off these stereotypes.

But, of course, I'm used to it.

"...thy will be done..."

Melon

melon, i am totally feeling you. i'm beginning to think there aren't many of us, "radical Catholics" around these parts, which is too bad.



[This message has been edited by Screaming Flower (edited 11-13-2001).]
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Old 11-13-2001, 05:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
80sU2isBest;
In your eyes, is my prayer good enough for you?
Ant.
As I stated earlier, I have never held myself up to be any higher than anyone else. I never knocked anyone else's religious beliefs, either. I don't do that. I do believe that Christianity is the only way. I don't just believe it. Christ said it. Christ claimed to be not only the Son of God, but God in the flesh. He also said "No one comes to the Father but by me" and "Unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Therefore, if someone does not believe this way, they don't believe the way I do. Of course I don't mind if other people pray. The thing I am saying is that when I pray, I'm going to pray with people who believe the same way I do.
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Old 11-13-2001, 05:34 PM   #39
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'I don't just believe it. Christ said it. Christ claimed to be not only the Son of God, but God in the flesh.'

I am sorry, but never did Jesus say that HIS way was the only way. He never said such a thing. What he DID say was that the 'kingdom of God was within', that is where you find God. I am all for you thinking that your way is the way YOU have to go, but I have never been able to agree with the notion that one person's way is THE way, and anybody else's is irrelevant. Its the same notion I saw in the Middle East when they used to promote Islam as THE way. I don't think you are being self-righteous, but I don't think you are justified in saying that Christianity is the only way.

Jesus never said that his way was the only way, to say that he said that would be to negate ALL of his other teachings.

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Old 11-13-2001, 05:44 PM   #40
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Most justification for both Jesus' divinity / humanity, as well as demands for total conversion or risk hell came from St. Paul. Take that for what you will.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 11-13-2001, 06:07 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
'I don't just believe it. Christ said it. Christ claimed to be not only the Son of God, but God in the flesh.'

I am sorry, but never did Jesus say that HIS way was the only way. He never said such a thing. in saying that Christianity is the only way.
Jesus never said that his way was the only way, to say that he said that would be to negate ALL of his other teachings.
Ant.
I'm sorry, Anthony, but yes, He did. You don't have to believe He is the only way, but he did indeed say He is. I am working right now, but this evening, I will take the time to post the verses. But I will start you off with one right here:

"I am the Way, The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to the Father but by me".

And Christ saying He is the only way does NOT negate any of his other teachings. In fact, Christ's purpose in coming to this world was to have his blood shed for our sins, because that was the only way we could be saved.

If you do not want to believe that Christ is the only way, that's your perrogative, but you can't claim that Christ never claimed to be.
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Old 11-13-2001, 08:08 PM   #42
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Anthony,
Here are the Bible verses I promised you in which Christ claims to be the one and only way to salvation.
I want you to know when I say that I believe Christianity is the only way, I am not boasting, as if I am better than non-Christians. I have nothing to boast about - my salvation isn't because of my own works, but because of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, Glory be to God! The sinner I am, I could never save myself! It took the blood of Jesus, shed on the cross by Jesus, to cleanse me from the penalty of sin. Anyway, here are some verses in which Christ himslef claims to be the only way to salvation:

John 8:24
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Matthew 10:32
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, I will also deny him before my Father in Heaven."

John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'"

Anthony, there are others, as well as many other places in which others testify that he is the only - Paul, Timothy, John, to name just a few.

I am not trying to prove that I am right. I am presenting you with the truth because that's what Christians are to do. You can't have it both ways - either you believe that Christ is the only way (as He says He is), or you don't believe he is the way at all.

I say these things because I want everyone to come to a saving knowledge of and relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Peter 3:9
"God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance."


[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 11-13-2001).]
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Old 11-13-2001, 08:16 PM   #43
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Thanks for your quotes 80sU2isBest, and just as a note of reference, I'm not trying to start a fight without motive here. But thanks anyway, and, since you've given plenty of thought to this, its only fair that I make the effort in providing something remotely intelligent, which will admittedly take time.

However, I will fight you on this.

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Old 11-13-2001, 08:35 PM   #44
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80sU2isBest;

I stand corrected, those quotes are indeed spot on, and doubtless your knowledge of the Bible is far more extensive than I could ever hope to acquire. Truth to tell, I only read the New Testament entirely, and thought the Old Testament to be a pile of out-dated crap and henceforth stopped reading.

However, I still see those quotes as different from your interpretation. I'm not saying you're wrong, as I said earlier, you are right. But the truth as YOU saw it was not the same way as I saw it. You read those quotes and to you they speak of how only Jesus brings salvation, to me they read as someone who obviously knew more about humanity and the human soul than anybody else, and invited everybody else to follow his practices and to have the same spiritual awareness.

However, I have always rejected the interpetation of the Bible that anybody who does not follow Jesus' way is condemned, or is beyond redemption. The reason why I denied your interpetation (and I'm sorry, to me they are merely interpretations) is because I can't or won't see it that way. Its not a question of agreeing to disagree, its a question of both of us reading the exact same quotes and relying on our own faiths for a different interpretation; and thats what it is at the end of the day - an intepretation. MY argument is that my interpetation isn't necessarily THE WAY. I'm in the stage of my life where I have realised that no one can really be sure of anything, so why should anyone be passionate about convictions that could be wrong? The only conviction I have is that there should be no convictions, religion falls under that category.

Which is not to say that I consider the rest to be a bunch of fools, on the contrary, I have no way of looking into the life and experience of another person and therefore judging them by MY standards. Thats why I'm against the notion that the Christian way is the ONLY way, it just does not compute with my logic. One should never force his or her standards onto another person.

However, I don't think we are capable of understanding each other, I remember having this exact conversation with my family about three years ago, and we still can't see each other's perspectives.
While I think that their way is strictly THEIR way and they still think I am damned for my system of belief, my only regret is not being able to see what they see.

And also, as Melon pointed out, all the gospels are written by four of the apostles. Now, I don't know what your beliefs are on this, but I have always thought that the testimonies given by each of them was, at times, questionable. For me, I have to read JESUS' gospel, before I can take whatever is written down as THE GOSPEL TRUTH. However, there is evidently no proof of such that is recognisable by the Catholic Church.

Bono said (sang) it once; 'Don't believe what you see'.

Ant.
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Old 11-13-2001, 09:06 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
I'm in the stage of my life where I have realised that no one can really be sure of anything, so why should anyone be passionate about convictions that could be wrong? The only conviction I have is that there should be no convictions, religion falls under that category.
Well said.

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