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Old 02-24-2007, 02:36 AM   #121
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I've been away a few days, so its taken me a while to read up on everything, but there is this line of thought that i seriously think a lot of "pro lifers" are wrong about and taking up from Angela Harlems post, most (if not all!) people who support a womans right to choose is just that - we support a womans right to CHOOSE. We acknowledge that surprise! peoples situations differ, things happen in other peoples lives that you have no right over. Not every person who has an abortion is some whore who slutted herself around and uses it as a form of birth control. We arn't these glinting murderous witches cackling in our glee at the "murder" of babies, but women who care for other women (and men) and understand that sometimes situations are dire enough to not be a great position for a baby to be born in. We don't live in a uniform world where people live exactly alike. No one has any idea about every single circumstance to be able to broadly paint the whole picture.

Do you actually understand the consequences of making abortion illegal? No only will backyard abortions take place, but there is no proper support structure in place to help with these unwanted babies. Adoption isn't an "easy" solution a lot of pain and hurt happens with adopted people and their families, a lot of emotions to deal with etc, that its not the happy easy flippant remark people seem to think it is, and for the people who cannot give a child up for adoption - where is their help? The us has a horrible welfare program, some countries don't even have welfare - and in this world where the gap between the have and the have nots grows wider - what is going to become of all these extra children born into a world where they are a financial strain etc. Where are the answers to this?

The world isn't black and white, and neither is this argument.
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Old 02-24-2007, 01:36 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy


The world isn't black and white, and neither is this argument.
Yet, you are black and white about the "right" to choose.

Choice, in and of itself, is not a right. For instance, I have no legal right to choose to blow my neigbor's brains out, even if he is annoying (which he is not, this is just an example).
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Old 02-24-2007, 03:06 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Yet, you are black and white about the "right" to choose.

But the whole point is with the right to choose, you have the right to choose which decision is best for the circumstances.

dazzlingamy, I agreed 100% with your post
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Old 02-25-2007, 11:43 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Yet, you are black and white about the "right" to choose.

Choice, in and of itself, is not a right. For instance, I have no legal right to choose to blow my neigbor's brains out, even if he is annoying (which he is not, this is just an example).


its far more black-and-white to think that a zygote is the same thing as a 45 year old man.
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:31 PM   #125
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Originally posted by Irvine511




its far more black-and-white to think that a zygote is the same thing as a 45 year old man.
Sort of like:

If the baby hasn't been born - no human rights
If the baby has been born - then human rights
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Old 02-25-2007, 12:45 PM   #126
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Originally posted by AEON


Sort of like:

If the baby hasn't been born - no human rights
If the baby has been born - then human rights
I wouldn't say that a foetus that hasn't been born has no human rights, its just when it is still inside the mother her rights over ride the rights of the foetus.
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:25 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Sort of like:

If the baby hasn't been born - no human rights
If the baby has been born - then human rights
And if you're a Republican it's the complete opposite.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:16 PM   #128
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Have you ever seen a Pro-Choice Parade? They are usually part of larger parades - like Women's Rights. These women (mostly women) are very adamant on their stance of "my body, my choice."

It is also on many bumper stickers here in the SF Bay Area. The attitude is very hostile about preserving this "right to privacy."

My point is this - it is a lie. It is not a matter of a right to privacy and it is not a matter of a cute little slogan "my body, my choice." It is a matter of life and death and it is serious.

Sean, you have your own style of persuasion and I have mine. While I know I sometimes offend those entirely opposed to my views, I also know that my extreme examples that display flaws in thinking have helped people "come off the fence" on several different issues, this one included. I know this because of PM's, e-mails, and the people I've met and had discussions with my entire life.

Am I master spreaker/writer? No. By no means. I admit that you, Yolland, Melon, A_W and most others are far more gifted writers than I am. But I do think I have a somewhat decent ability to expose social lunacy - and marching for the right to have an abortion is social lunacy.
A lie indicates that someone knows the truth but is intentionally misleading people away from the truth. To state that the "right to privacy" is a lie is to assume that those who support it are knowingly supporting murder. Reading this thread and the previous one it should be quite clear that those who oppose banning abortion are not knowingly supporting murder. Either they don't believe they are actually killing a human being and/or they feel that the life and health of the mother should come before that of the child.

My post was not a referendum on your writing/speaking ability. You articulate your positions quite well.

However, I do have an issue with your persuasion style as you call it. The "extreme rhetoric" as you describe it, does indeed pull people off the fence, but in a way, that I believe is disingenous. For example calling women who have abortions "murderers." Such terminology hits you in the gut, and yes, can be very persuasive. It is sympotmatic of a type of hyperbolic, confrontational discourse that is becoming more and more common on both the left and right. It's about people being swayed because something "feels true" rather than whether it is. "Truthiness" I think they call it?

There's a line in the movie "Thank You For Smoking" where the main character tells his son, "You don't have to be right, you just have to have a better argument than the other guy." I think you're an intelligent enough guy that you don't have to resort to this kind of arguing to make your case.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:26 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean




There's a line in the movie "Thank You For Smoking" where the main character tells his son, "You don't have to be right, you just have to have a better argument than the other guy." I think you're an intelligent enough guy that you don't have to resort to this kind of arguing to make your case.
Dictionary.com

LIE - noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.

In my opinion, any of these definitions fit the Pro-Choice movement. Especially #3.

And as far your line from the movie, while it sounds witty and convincing - I'd rather be right than simply have a better argument. My goal in these forums is to try and put the truth out there in simple logic (sometimes with extreme conclusions) and let the chips fall where they may.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:38 PM   #130
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You're not right.
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Old 02-25-2007, 09:40 PM   #131
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AEON, what gives you the right to tell others who think the personal choice of choosing an abortion is a right to privacy or agree with the concept of "my body, my choice" is a lie? You think it is a lie. This view is not by your definition from the dictionary a lie. Because you don't agree with the position of these people doesn't mean they are liars. I don't agree with religious people of most stripes but I don't think they are liars. They believe what they believe, it is a personal thing.

Regarding cutesy slogans, I don't think people would like the slogan "Mind Your Own Fucking Business" and it might not fit on a bumper sticker.
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Old 02-25-2007, 10:00 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Dictionary.com

LIE - noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3. an inaccurate or false statement.

In my opinion, any of these definitions fit the Pro-Choice movement. Especially #3.
Based on the discussion thus far, the most you could argue for is definition number three, but the reality is that most people, especially those fence sitters you mentioned earlier will assume you mean definition one or two when you call pro-choice people "liars." Because those are the definitons we're generally referring to when we call someone as a liar. And as Trevster ably pointed out, calling someone a liar just because they don't arrive at the same conclusions as you is unfair.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

And as far your line from the movie, while it sounds witty and convincing - I'd rather be right than simply have a better argument. My goal in these forums is to try and put the truth out there in simple logic (sometimes with extreme conclusions) and let the chips fall where they may.
But that's just it. You are taking the "better argument" route, i.e. using heavily loaded (and inaccurate, but never mind that) words like "murderer" and "liar" that are emotionally persuasive (but not necessarily true,but never mind that) at the gut level, knocking them "off the fence." I'm not saying it's not effective. It is. But I just think you're better than that. In fact, I know you are.
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Old 02-25-2007, 10:05 PM   #133
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Originally posted by maycocksean


Based on the discussion thus far, the most you could argue for is definition number three, but the reality is that most people, especially those fence sitters you mentioned earlier will assume you mean definition one or two when you call pro-choice people "liars." Because those are the definitons we're generally referring to when we call someone as a liar. And as Trevster ably pointed out, calling someone a liar just because they don't arrive at the same conclusions as you is unfair.



But that's just it. You are taking the "better argument" route, i.e. using heavily loaded (and inaccurate, but never mind that) words like "murderer" and "liar" that are emotionally persuasive (but not necessarily true,but never mind that) at the gut level, knocking them "off the fence." I'm not saying it's not effective. It is. But I just think you're better than that. In fact, I know you are.
I suppose we just have to respectfully agree to disagree. We have different opinions of what is true and what is effective.
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Old 02-25-2007, 10:06 PM   #134
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Originally posted by maycocksean
I'm not saying it's not effective. It is.
No, it isn't.

The only people who will be swayed by these outrageous statements are other like-minded folks who already agree with his view.

Nobody else will even want to enter a discussion.
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Old 02-25-2007, 10:13 PM   #135
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No, it isn't.

The only people who will be swayed by these outrageous statements are other like-minded folks who already agree with his view.

Nobody else will even want to enter a discussion.
I disagree. And AEON himself provides the evidence of that. Fence sitters, especially those who don't want to think too hard, who haven't "made up their minds" can be swayed by these tactics.

It's no accident that O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity and all the rest are so successful. A lot of people hear what they say, and think "wow, that sounds really true." And they buy it.
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