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Old 02-22-2007, 02:05 PM   #76
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And? What does it matter what percentage of abortions is done at any given time? Unless, you are advocating making abortion illegal AFTER 12 weeks, then I’d see why you are making this statement.

because it shows you that most women who have an unwanted pregnancy terminate it immediately. those that terminate a pregnancy in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters do so for health reasons, thus WHY ABORTION IS LEGAL FOR THE DURATION OF THE PREGNANCY.



[q]Most pro-life folks I know understand that there are certain medical emergencies that warrant an abortion.[/q]

and could you spell out what those are, which ones aren't, and then show me the medical review board that will allow a woman to get an abortion or not? and how you're going to pay for all of this? because this is the road you're going to go down if you make abortion illegal with only certain medical exceptions (which medical exceptions?)

and this is precisely why abortion must remain legal -- let the mother decide what is and what isn't an appropriate health risk as well as whether or not she feels as if she can carry the baby to term for a variety of different reasons.

if you're so against abortion, you'd do better to work on changing the hearts and minds of all women, everywhere, rather than a Draconian outlawing of abortion.



[q]What does want/not want have to do with the survival of the 22 week old baby girl? At 22 weeks “outside” the womb, is she suddenly a different being? Or is she still susceptible to her mother’s desire to keep her because she can’t live on her own? [/q]

if the mother had not wanted the pregnancy, there never would have been a 22nd week.
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Old 02-22-2007, 02:11 PM   #77
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Originally posted by Irvine511



because it shows you that most women who have an unwanted pregnancy terminate it immediately. those that terminate a pregnancy in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters do so for health reasons, thus WHY ABORTION IS LEGAL FOR THE DURATION OF THE PREGNANCY.



[q]Most pro-life folks I know understand that there are certain medical emergencies that warrant an abortion.[/q]

and could you spell out what those are, which ones aren't, and then show me the medical review board that will allow a woman to get an abortion or not? and how you're going to pay for all of this? because this is the road you're going to go down if you make abortion illegal with only certain medical exceptions (which medical exceptions?)

and this is precisely why abortion must remain legal -- let the mother decide what is and what isn't an appropriate health risk as well as whether or not she feels as if she can carry the baby to term for a variety of different reasons.

if you're so against abortion, you'd do better to work on changing the hearts and minds of all women, everywhere, rather than a Draconian outlawing of abortion.



[q]What does want/not want have to do with the survival of the 22 week old baby girl? At 22 weeks “outside” the womb, is she suddenly a different being? Or is she still susceptible to her mother’s desire to keep her because she can’t live on her own? [/q]

if the mother had not wanted the pregnancy, there never would have been a 22nd week.
Dang Irvine - you actually avoided or side stepped every single question here.
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Old 02-22-2007, 02:13 PM   #78
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Dang Irvine - you actually avoided or side stepped every single question here.


i think you're questions missed the point.

i answered them as well as i could.

i'm not sure what i can do to be clearer.
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Old 02-22-2007, 04:29 PM   #79
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I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?
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Old 02-22-2007, 04:38 PM   #80
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Just think, this baby wouldn't have survived 30 years ago, god must have hated babies back then.
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Old 02-22-2007, 04:40 PM   #81
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Originally posted by AEON
I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?


what you are missing is you're conflating very different things and asking a question in order to elicit a response that isn't relevant to the situation.

abortions performed at the 22 week are nearly all done for medical reasons. if this baby were born without a brain stem, or born with a 3 chambered heart, or were somehow in the condition of Teri Schivo, or had terminal cancer, then it would be totally within the rights of the next of kin to pull the plug. having an abortion at 22 weeks is only comparable to these things, and this is why abortion remains legal up until the moment of birth. please, do some reading up on abortions that happen after the first trimester and you'll see that it's not comparable to a mother killing this particular baby and more comparable to someone pulling the plug on terminally ill patient. and those 2nd trimester abortions that aren't for medical necessity are usually had by very, very young teenagers who haven't grasped the idea that they are pregnant.

if this particular mother didn't want a baby, if the pregnancy was accidental, and if she had an abortion, it would have probably happened long, long, long before the 22nd week.

since the mother wants the baby, and the baby was born healthy (relatively), there is no reason on earth to end the pregnancy since, guess what, it is no longer a pregnancy.

let me ask you this: would you rather a mother have a first trimester abortion, or, give birth to the baby and then leave it to freeze to death in a dumpster?
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:23 PM   #82
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Originally posted by Irvine511




what you are missing is you're conflating very different things and asking a question in order to elicit a response that isn't relevant to the situation.

abortions performed at the 22 week are nearly all done for medical reasons. if this baby were born without a brain stem, or born with a 3 chambered heart, or were somehow in the condition of Teri Schivo, or had terminal cancer, then it would be totally within the rights of the next of kin to pull the plug. having an abortion at 22 weeks is only comparable to these things, and this is why abortion remains legal up until the moment of birth. please, do some reading up on abortions that happen after the first trimester and you'll see that it's not comparable to a mother killing this particular baby and more comparable to someone pulling the plug on terminally ill patient. and those 2nd trimester abortions that aren't for medical necessity are usually had by very, very young teenagers who haven't grasped the idea that they are pregnant.

if this particular mother didn't want a baby, if the pregnancy was accidental, and if she had an abortion, it would have probably happened long, long, long before the 22nd week.

since the mother wants the baby, and the baby was born healthy (relatively), there is no reason on earth to end the pregnancy since, guess what, it is no longer a pregnancy.

let me ask you this: would you rather a mother have a first trimester abortion, or, give birth to the baby and then leave it to freeze to death in a dumpster?
Since I don't see a direct answer to my question I can only deduce from this post that you in fact would NOT consider it murder if the mother of the 22 week old baby requested that the doctor walk over to the incubator and kill the child.

As for your question proposed to me - I would obviously rather have neither. It's like asking me if I'd rather have my head sawed off or have my guts vacuumed out. If I must choose one of your two horrible options, I'd have to go with the dumpster in hopes that the baby is saved.
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:35 PM   #83
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Originally posted by AEON


Since I don't see a direct answer to my question I can only deduce from this post that you in fact would NOT consider it murder if the mother of the 22 week old baby requested that the doctor walk over to the incubator and kill the child.



i reject the premise of your question. the baby has been born. the baby is wanted. the baby will grow into a healthy child. the mother WANTS the baby. end of story.


Quote:
As for your question proposed to me - I would obviously rather have neither. It's like asking me if I'd rather have my head sawed off or have my guts vacuumed out. If I must choose one of your two horrible options, I'd have to go with the dumpster in hopes that the baby is saved.
but that's really not an answer, as this is the reality and one of the many reasons why abortion should remain illegal.

me, i'd rather be wiped out after 3 weeks rather than freeze to death as a fully formed human baby.
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:47 PM   #84
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Originally posted by Irvine511



i reject the premise of your question. the baby has been born. the baby is wanted. the baby will grow into a healthy child. the mother WANTS the baby. end of story.
Essentially, what you're saying is that this 22 week old baby girl has no rights other than the rights the mother give it. These rights can be given and taken away based on the "want" of the child.

Man, I better send somthing nice to mom on Mother's Day!
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:49 PM   #85
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Originally posted by AEON
I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?
The key difference between a 22 week old baby in an incubator and a 22 week old foetus is that the baby has been born.
So this is a ridiculous statement to make.
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?
This question is brought up for argument's sake, isn't it?

I mean, how many times did not only Irvine, but als the others, point out that they are speaking about abortions after the first trimester when there is a medical necessity? Every time.

No one said yes to abortions at the 22nd week when there is no reason, but it was always pointed out that these abortions are a great minority, and nearly every time carried out because this baby would suffer or die right away if it was born.

And this decision was then made by doctors and the parents.

It's stated over and over again, and still the only thing you come up is this question, "What if... bla?"

And the answer you get ever time should make it cristal clear that the people here are in support of an abortion after the first trimester only when there are serious medical reasons.
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:53 PM   #87
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Just think, this baby wouldn't have survived 30 years ago, god must have hated babies back then.

i know its just a few weeks off, but there were a few, including myself born at 24 weeks, now im 35 yrs old
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:58 PM   #88
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
This question is brought up for argument's sake, isn't it?

I mean, how many times did not only Irvine, but als the others, point out that they are speaking about abortions after the first trimester when there is a medical necessity? Every time.

No one said yes to abortions at the 22nd week when there is no reason, but it was always pointed out that these abortions are a great minority, and nearly every time carried out because this baby would suffer or die right away if it was born.

And this decision was then made by doctors and the parents.

It's stated over and over again, and still the only thing you come up is this question, "What if... bla?"

And the answer you get ever time should make it cristal clear that the people here are in support of an abortion after the first trimester only when there are serious medical reasons.
I understand that. My questioning is meant to understand what happens between 21 weeks - 6 days - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 22 weeks that suddenly gave this baby's life value?
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Old 02-22-2007, 06:00 PM   #89
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Originally posted by AEON


I understand that. My questioning is meant to understand what happens between 21 weeks, 6 days - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 22 weeks that suddenly gave this baby's life value?
There has to be some cut off point - you know that, why are you being pedantic about it?
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Old 02-22-2007, 06:06 PM   #90
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I understand that. My questioning is meant to understand what happens between 21 weeks - 6 days - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 22 weeks that suddenly gave this baby's life value?
The same that happens between 17 years - 11 months - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 18 years, but to a greater extent.

And with this case, there was no going to abort, nor any planning. So, where's the connection?
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