Amazing! A baby survives being born at 22 weeks.

[cell]

That's truly amazing, Icelle. Your mum and yourself must have beaten some odds back then!

given the technology, or lack of, it was a struggle. my mother was told that i too, was a mass of skin, cells, blood, no heartbeat. because of this, i cannot fathom abortion just because the mother has rights to terminate. its not a popular stance but i wont apologize for what i believe in.

 

[Dismantled]

i was born at 24 weeks gestation. i spent one month in an incubator after my mom gave birth. she fought like hell to keep me alive. im grateful to her for that. i believe all babies should have a right to live.

amen.

 

[blueeyedgirl]

Yet, according to you, it is still the mother's choice at week 22. As it is at week 23 - week 24,25...all the way until birth.

A post earlier in this thread claimed a 22 week old abortion falls into the "9% of the all abortions" category. That's maybe 100,000 babies such as this girl being ripped apart every year in America. To say, there is "never" a week 22 is false.



According to your logic, the 22 week old baby could be born perfectly healthy, but if the mother decided she didn't want the child, even after birth, she can go over and kill her. And not just kill the baby with a bottle filled with hemlock, but walk over and pop a hole in the soft skull and vacuum out the brains.

You've never spoken face to face to a woman who has had an abortion, have you?

 

[AEON]

You've never spoken face to face to a woman who has had an abortion, have you?

Yep. My sister.

 

[blueeyedgirl]

Really? Curious attitude then. Not that it matters much, I don't spend much time in FYM.

 

[AEON]

Really? Curious attitude then. Not that it matters much, I don't spend much time in FYM.

Why is it so curious? She absolutely regrets her decision. She has gone on to have another child, a wonderful little boy; but she is still disturbed by the abortion.

I use graphic images because I want to challenge people to REALLY think about what they are advocating. This is more than a t-shirt wearing, bumper-sticker slapping, march around campus with Woman Studies' majors issue - this is a real, sadistic, barbaric, and murderous act. The birth of this little baby girl puts a real face on those that are ripped apart limb by limb every single day under the umbrella of a right to privacy.

 

[blueeyedgirl]

You and I shall agree to disagree.

 

[Angela Harlem]

What did you say to the father of this baby, AEON? He murdered this baby too, just like your sister did. How much time do you suggest she and the father should spend in jail, by the way?

 

[AEON]

What did you say to the father of this baby, AEON? He murdered this baby too, just like your sister did. How much time do you suggest she and the father should spend in jail, by the way?

I didn't find out until many years after the event. The father of the baby has essentially disappeared.

Being that the abortion was legal at the time - she shouldn't spend anytime in jail. If it were illegal and there were known legal consequences, I imagine this would have impacted her decision.

 

[Butterscotch]

But could that baby have survived at 22 weeks without being heavily aided by doctors and living off machines for months?
The answer is no, and it's lucky that is has survived at all, so I don't think it puts whether abortion is right or not into question at all.

I think it DOES bring up a lot of questions, since it's legal in most places to kill a 22 week 'fetus' via partial birth abortion. Why is it that this cute little baby is so precious to everyone now that we can see its face? If it had gotten its little spinal column cut and its brain sucked out it would have been disposed of as so much 'tissue.' Seeing this baby's story should put a face on the issue to those who only consider 'choice' and not the reality of what is living, or dying, behind it.

 

[Butterscotch]

What did you say to the father of this baby, AEON? He murdered this baby too, just like your sister did. How much time do you suggest she and the father should spend in jail, by the way?

It's also hard for me to accept that in many cases, when a guy brutalizes a pregnant woman and kills the baby, he's charged with that, but if the woman 'chooses' to end its life on her own, it's some kind of wonderful and noble thing to be defended as right. Actually, a woman who aborts is even more guilty of intentional killing than a guy who gets drunk and beats her up, but doesn't intend to hurt the child, though they are both wrong.

 

[coemgen]

Agreed, Butterscotch.

 

[Butterscotch]

Agreed, Butterscotch.

Thank you! I was so afraid to post that, I was afraid I was going to get flamed. It is something everyone should think about whether they want to or not.

 

[Irvine511]

i'm still failing to under stand why the anti-abortion people -- who, believe it or not, i do understand where you are coming from -- aren't addressing the following points which have been made over and over:

1. the vast, vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester, i.e., the first 12 weeks

2. the vast majority of abortions that happen after the first trimester are usually for medical reasons -- the mother will die, the baby doesn't have a brain stem, the baby's heart isn't developing and s/he will die shortly after birth (my best friend would have had a little brother but he died 3 days after birth for precisely this reason), etc.

3. this mother obviously wants this baby.

i also think we're missing something here. we're getting very emotional about the fact that we can see hands and feet and therefore it must be a person, but i don't think anatomy is a requirement for sentient personhood. it's considered a medical miracle that the baby can survive outside of the womb at 22 weeks. that's why we're reading about it.

 

[AEON]

i'm still failing to under stand why the anti-abortion people -- who, believe it or not, i do understand where you are coming from -- aren't addressing the following points which have been made over and over:

1. the vast, vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester, i.e., the first 12 weeks

And? What does it matter what percentage of abortions is done at any given time? Unless, you are advocating making abortion illegal AFTER 12 weeks, then I’d see why you are making this statement.

2. the vast majority of abortions that happen after the first trimester are usually for medical reasons -- the mother will die, the baby doesn't have a brain stem, the baby's heart isn't developing and s/he will die shortly after birth (my best friend would have had a little brother but he died 3 days after birth for precisely this reason), etc.

Most pro-life folks I know understand that there are certain medical emergencies that warrant an abortion.

3. this mother obviously wants this baby.

i also think we're missing something here. we're getting very emotional about the fact that we can see hands and feet and therefore it must be a person, but i don't think anatomy is a requirement for sentient personhood. it's considered a medical miracle that the baby can survive outside of the womb at 22 weeks. that's why we're reading about it.

What does want/not want have to do with the survival of the 22 week old baby girl? At 22 weeks “outside” the womb, is she suddenly a different being? Or is she still susceptible to her mother’s desire to keep her because she can’t live on her own?

 

[Irvine511]

And? What does it matter what percentage of abortions is done at any given time? Unless, you are advocating making abortion illegal AFTER 12 weeks, then I’d see why you are making this statement.

because it shows you that most women who have an unwanted pregnancy terminate it immediately. those that terminate a pregnancy in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters do so for health reasons, thus WHY ABORTION IS LEGAL FOR THE DURATION OF THE PREGNANCY.



[q]Most pro-life folks I know understand that there are certain medical emergencies that warrant an abortion.[/q]

and could you spell out what those are, which ones aren't, and then show me the medical review board that will allow a woman to get an abortion or not? and how you're going to pay for all of this? because this is the road you're going to go down if you make abortion illegal with only certain medical exceptions (which medical exceptions?)

and this is precisely why abortion must remain legal -- let the mother decide what is and what isn't an appropriate health risk as well as whether or not she feels as if she can carry the baby to term for a variety of different reasons.

if you're so against abortion, you'd do better to work on changing the hearts and minds of all women, everywhere, rather than a Draconian outlawing of abortion.



[q]What does want/not want have to do with the survival of the 22 week old baby girl? At 22 weeks “outside” the womb, is she suddenly a different being? Or is she still susceptible to her mother’s desire to keep her because she can’t live on her own? [/q]

if the mother had not wanted the pregnancy, there never would have been a 22nd week.

 

[AEON]

because it shows you that most women who have an unwanted pregnancy terminate it immediately. those that terminate a pregnancy in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters do so for health reasons, thus WHY ABORTION IS LEGAL FOR THE DURATION OF THE PREGNANCY.



[q]Most pro-life folks I know understand that there are certain medical emergencies that warrant an abortion.[/q]

and could you spell out what those are, which ones aren't, and then show me the medical review board that will allow a woman to get an abortion or not? and how you're going to pay for all of this? because this is the road you're going to go down if you make abortion illegal with only certain medical exceptions (which medical exceptions?)

and this is precisely why abortion must remain legal -- let the mother decide what is and what isn't an appropriate health risk as well as whether or not she feels as if she can carry the baby to term for a variety of different reasons.

if you're so against abortion, you'd do better to work on changing the hearts and minds of all women, everywhere, rather than a Draconian outlawing of abortion.



[q]What does want/not want have to do with the survival of the 22 week old baby girl? At 22 weeks “outside” the womb, is she suddenly a different being? Or is she still susceptible to her mother’s desire to keep her because she can’t live on her own? [/q]

if the mother had not wanted the pregnancy, there never would have been a 22nd week.

Dang Irvine - you actually avoided or side stepped every single question here.

 

[Irvine511]

Dang Irvine - you actually avoided or side stepped every single question here.

i think you're questions missed the point.

i answered them as well as i could.

i'm not sure what i can do to be clearer.

 

[AEON]

I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?

 

[BVS]

Just think, this baby wouldn't have survived 30 years ago, god must have hated babies back then.

 

[Irvine511]

I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?

what you are missing is you're conflating very different things and asking a question in order to elicit a response that isn't relevant to the situation.

abortions performed at the 22 week are nearly all done for medical reasons. if this baby were born without a brain stem, or born with a 3 chambered heart, or were somehow in the condition of Teri Schivo, or had terminal cancer, then it would be totally within the rights of the next of kin to pull the plug. having an abortion at 22 weeks is only comparable to these things, and this is why abortion remains legal up until the moment of birth. please, do some reading up on abortions that happen after the first trimester and you'll see that it's not comparable to a mother killing this particular baby and more comparable to someone pulling the plug on terminally ill patient. and those 2nd trimester abortions that aren't for medical necessity are usually had by very, very young teenagers who haven't grasped the idea that they are pregnant.

if this particular mother didn't want a baby, if the pregnancy was accidental, and if she had an abortion, it would have probably happened long, long, long before the 22nd week.

since the mother wants the baby, and the baby was born healthy (relatively), there is no reason on earth to end the pregnancy since, guess what, it is no longer a pregnancy.

let me ask you this: would you rather a mother have a first trimester abortion, or, give birth to the baby and then leave it to freeze to death in a dumpster?

 

[AEON]

what you are missing is you're conflating very different things and asking a question in order to elicit a response that isn't relevant to the situation.

abortions performed at the 22 week are nearly all done for medical reasons. if this baby were born without a brain stem, or born with a 3 chambered heart, or were somehow in the condition of Teri Schivo, or had terminal cancer, then it would be totally within the rights of the next of kin to pull the plug. having an abortion at 22 weeks is only comparable to these things, and this is why abortion remains legal up until the moment of birth. please, do some reading up on abortions that happen after the first trimester and you'll see that it's not comparable to a mother killing this particular baby and more comparable to someone pulling the plug on terminally ill patient. and those 2nd trimester abortions that aren't for medical necessity are usually had by very, very young teenagers who haven't grasped the idea that they are pregnant.

if this particular mother didn't want a baby, if the pregnancy was accidental, and if she had an abortion, it would have probably happened long, long, long before the 22nd week.

since the mother wants the baby, and the baby was born healthy (relatively), there is no reason on earth to end the pregnancy since, guess what, it is no longer a pregnancy.

let me ask you this: would you rather a mother have a first trimester abortion, or, give birth to the baby and then leave it to freeze to death in a dumpster?

Since I don't see a direct answer to my question I can only deduce from this post that you in fact would NOT consider it murder if the mother of the 22 week old baby requested that the doctor walk over to the incubator and kill the child.

As for your question proposed to me - I would obviously rather have neither. It's like asking me if I'd rather have my head sawed off or have my guts vacuumed out. If I must choose one of your two horrible options, I'd have to go with the dumpster in hopes that the baby is saved.

 

[Irvine511]

Since I don't see a direct answer to my question I can only deduce from this post that you in fact would NOT consider it murder if the mother of the 22 week old baby requested that the doctor walk over to the incubator and kill the child.

i reject the premise of your question. the baby has been born. the baby is wanted. the baby will grow into a healthy child. the mother WANTS the baby. end of story.

As for your question proposed to me - I would obviously rather have neither. It's like asking me if I'd rather have my head sawed off or have my guts vacuumed out. If I must choose one of your two horrible options, I'd have to go with the dumpster in hopes that the baby is saved.

but that's really not an answer, as this is the reality and one of the many reasons why abortion should remain illegal.

me, i'd rather be wiped out after 3 weeks rather than freeze to death as a fully formed human baby.

 

[AEON]

i reject the premise of your question. the baby has been born. the baby is wanted. the baby will grow into a healthy child. the mother WANTS the baby. end of story.

Essentially, what you're saying is that this 22 week old baby girl has no rights other than the rights the mother give it. These rights can be given and taken away based on the "want" of the child.

Man, I better send somthing nice to mom on Mother's Day!

 

[pgv]

I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?

The key difference between a 22 week old baby in an incubator and a 22 week old foetus is that the baby has been born.
So this is a ridiculous statement to make.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I guess I'm missing something...

Let me ask you this: If the doctor walked up this 22 week old baby girl today and killed her while she slept in the incubator, with the mother's approval, would you consider it murder?

This question is brought up for argument's sake, isn't it?

I mean, how many times did not only Irvine, but als the others, point out that they are speaking about abortions after the first trimester when there is a medical necessity? Every time.

No one said yes to abortions at the 22nd week when there is no reason, but it was always pointed out that these abortions are a great minority, and nearly every time carried out because this baby would suffer or die right away if it was born.

And this decision was then made by doctors and the parents.

It's stated over and over again, and still the only thing you come up is this question, "What if... bla?"

And the answer you get ever time should make it cristal clear that the people here are in support of an abortion after the first trimester only when there are serious medical reasons.

 

[cell]

Just think, this baby wouldn't have survived 30 years ago, god must have hated babies back then.

i know its just a few weeks off, but there were a few, including myself born at 24 weeks, now im 35 yrs old

 

[AEON]

This question is brought up for argument's sake, isn't it?

I mean, how many times did not only Irvine, but als the others, point out that they are speaking about abortions after the first trimester when there is a medical necessity? Every time.

No one said yes to abortions at the 22nd week when there is no reason, but it was always pointed out that these abortions are a great minority, and nearly every time carried out because this baby would suffer or die right away if it was born.

And this decision was then made by doctors and the parents.

It's stated over and over again, and still the only thing you come up is this question, "What if... bla?"

And the answer you get ever time should make it cristal clear that the people here are in support of an abortion after the first trimester only when there are serious medical reasons.

I understand that. My questioning is meant to understand what happens between 21 weeks - 6 days - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 22 weeks that suddenly gave this baby's life value?

 

[pgv]

I understand that. My questioning is meant to understand what happens between 21 weeks, 6 days - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 22 weeks that suddenly gave this baby's life value?

There has to be some cut off point - you know that, why are you being pedantic about it?

 

[Vincent Vega]

I understand that. My questioning is meant to understand what happens between 21 weeks - 6 days - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 22 weeks that suddenly gave this baby's life value?

The same that happens between 17 years - 11 months - 23 hours - 59 minutes - 59 seconds and 18 years, but to a greater extent.

And with this case, there was no going to abort, nor any planning. So, where's the connection?