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Old 02-20-2007, 08:04 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
I personally don't know the stats, but I'm sure there are still many who do at that point in the pregnancy and even later. Don't you?
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:05 PM   #32
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Originally posted by icelle
i was born at 24 weeks gestation. i spent one month in an incubator after my mom gave birth. she fought like hell to keep me alive. im grateful to her for that. i believe all babies should have a right to live.
That's truly amazing, Icelle. Your mum and yourself must have beaten some odds back then!
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:06 PM   #33
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Originally posted by partygirlvox



I also don't refer to it as a baby under about 22 weeks, as it isn't at an age where it can survive outside its mothers womb and therefore not a human being yet in my opinion.
So, at 21 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours and 59 seconds - the baby is not yet a human being?

Would you consider that an abortion after 22 weeks is murder? It seems like you should if you consider a baby that is 22 weeks old a human being.

And like INDY said, if technology allows the baby to live outside the womb at 20 weeks, or 19...then would you consider that baby a human being?

It seems there is only one way to be certain the abortion is the murder of a child - don't have one.
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:09 PM   #34
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Originally posted by INDY500
...and in the not too distant future it will be 21 weeks, and then 20, and then...
Then we won't have pregnant women anymore because if you think it will go down to the first trimester, our technology will essentially mean we can grow babies entirely in vitro.

So this discussion will no longer be relevant.
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


So, at 21 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours and 59 seconds - the baby is not yet a human being?

Would you consider that an abortion after 22 weeks is murder? It seems like you should if you consider a baby that is 22 weeks old a human being.

And like INDY said, if technology allows the baby to live outside the womb at 20 weeks, or 19...then would you consider that baby a human being?

It seems there is only one way to be certain the abortion is the murder of a child - don't have one.
No I don't consider it murder at all - I didn't say that. I just think that calling a half formed foetus 'a baby' enables people to talk of abortion as if it is murder.

And I also said 'about 22 weeks' - not having enough knowledge on the growth of a foetus I personally cannot make a judgement as to when the foetus has developed enough to survive outside the womb without the aid of machines and doctors. But it is then, when it can survive, that I consider it a baby.


Icelle, thats an amazing story.
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:14 PM   #36
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To everyone who is so focused on the murderous pregnant women, may I remind you all of the erect and ready male who was complicit in the act of making this baby? He is a murderer, too. Not an acccessory.
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:15 PM   #37
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Originally posted by anitram


Then we won't have pregnant women anymore because if you think it will go down to the first trimester, our technology will essentially mean we can grow babies entirely in vitro.


I wish I had read that post before I replied to Aeon.
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:21 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by partygirlvox


No I don't consider it murder at all - I didn't say that. I just think that calling a half formed foetus 'a baby' enables people to talk of abortion as if it is murder.

And I also said 'about 22 weeks' - not having enough knowledge on the growth of a foetus I personally cannot make a judgement as to when the foetus has developed enough to survive outside the womb without the aid of machines and doctors. But it is then, when it can survive, that I consider it a baby.


Icelle, thats an amazing story.
Just so I'm clear, you are stating that a "foetus" becomes a baby, a human being, about 22 weeks - but you don't consider this murder. Why not? Can the mother of the baby in the article still smother her with a pillow and claim "right to privacy"?
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Old 02-20-2007, 10:18 PM   #39
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I believe abortion is only necessary if the baby cannot be saved or if the mom was raped(that's for another discussion altogether). Why put yourself through the whole nine months of pregnancy when you know that your baby has no chance of survival after birth? That's completely devastating to the parents. If I knew my baby could not be saved after birth, I would terminate it.

You know, I work in a wonderful clinic at a hospital where the pregnant moms come in because their baby has a life threatening illness and the doctors see if the baby can be saved after birth. Have any of you heard of trisomy 18 or congenital diaphramatic hernia? Please look it up. Think of how the parents feel when they hear that their baby has this.

I feel like I went off on a tangent. Sorry.
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Old 02-20-2007, 10:25 PM   #40
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Originally posted by U2Girl1978
Why put yourself through the whole nine months of pregnancy when you know that your baby has no chance of survival after birth? That's completely devastating to the parents. If I knew my baby could not be saved after birth, I would terminate it.
I agree, but I also think it depends on the mother. My mom's friend w/ the anacephalic baby carried full term and felt more closure being able to take the baby home, name her, hold her, and have their own baby to themselves for that short time. For some it's more difficult this way, but for others they can't ever find closure without being able to think of the baby as a baby (as opposed to a defective fetus).

Whatever the parents decide, I think it's totally up to them. They should not be judged or labeled murderers because someone else has a different opinion about something so private and personal.
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Old 02-20-2007, 10:38 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Liesje



Whatever the parents decide, I think it's totally up to them. They should not be judged or labeled murderers because someone else has a different opinion about something so private and personal.
I totally agree.
They are already going through hell, and this decision to make isn't easy. They don't need some moralists that think only their opinion is the only right one to judge them.

And one should think about it if it is really a life for a human being to be lived.
People say they don't want their worst enemy going through this or being like that, so why do they want some children has this fate?
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Old 02-20-2007, 11:41 PM   #42
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Originally posted by partygirlvox


The point I'm trying to make is it is mainly down to luck that this baby survived at 22 weeks, and there haven't been any other cases of such a thing happening.
Yes I think its open to debate.. I just think alot of people are going to take this story as an example why abortion should not be allowed, when really its such a rare event.
Its a rare event now, I suspect it will become less so, especially with increases in medical technology.
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Old 02-20-2007, 11:54 PM   #43
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Originally posted by partygirlvox


No I don't consider it murder at all - I didn't say that. I just think that calling a half formed foetus 'a baby' enables people to talk of abortion as if it is murder.

And I also said 'about 22 weeks' - not having enough knowledge on the growth of a foetus I personally cannot make a judgement as to when the foetus has developed enough to survive outside the womb without the aid of machines and doctors. But it is then, when it can survive, that I consider it a baby.


Icelle, thats an amazing story.
Well, do you consider it murder when a man stabs a pregnant women and kills the unborn baby/fetus?

What about people who need the aid of machines and doctors in order to survive, are they not human?
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Old 02-21-2007, 06:33 AM   #44
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Has anyone here not yet read the now-closed thread on abortion from last week?

Because if not, I suggest you carve out an hour or so of your schedule, sit back with a cuppa joe and a notebook handy and read through that thread.

Then if you have anything new to add to the discussion, do so.

I for one don't have the energy to unpack all over again the points about the complicated nature of the abortion issue, complications that are routinely ignored by both sides of the issue and in this thread seem to be particularly being ignored by our "right-to-life" folks.
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Old 02-21-2007, 06:34 AM   #45
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I'm waiting for the next medical miracle when men can have babies. Then won't the abortion debate be really interesting?
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