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Old 02-06-2004, 11:56 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader



Oh bull ! You are implying that all Christians follow a similar doctrine. I get tired of this simplistic and uninformed view of the crusades.

sorry nbc, going back and reading my post it wasn't too articulate. it's a rare day i pull the crusades in an argument, cos there's so much technicality to it. the preacher was generalizing all Muslims and their past, so i kind of threw it back out. sorry, i should have gone further to explain it.


and i'm not uninformed on the crusades,
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Old 02-07-2004, 01:33 AM   #47
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In some countries where Islam is the predominant religion, laws state that if a person is born into a Muslim family, or coverts to Islam, but then renounces Islam and becomes an atheist or converts to another religion, that person is sentenced to imprisonment or the death penalty for the crime of apostacy. Does anybody know the basis for such laws?

My understanding is that it is in effect today, not just during the middle ages or some distant historic period.

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Old 02-07-2004, 02:09 AM   #48
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U2Alabama- where did you hear of such a law, and what countries are you talking about, if you don't mind my asking?
and i don't suppose there's a point to my saying that most people tend to generalize about Muslims based on some fanatics, and hence stigmatize what is a peaceful religion to be 'violent and hateful'. but we all know that, don't we?
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Old 02-07-2004, 02:52 AM   #49
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GroundBeneathU2:

I do wish that I were simply "tending to generalize" or whatever, but actually these laws exist and are carried out in several nations including Pakistan, Saudia Arabia and Iran. I have learned about them from several sources over the last few years including Amnesty International, the website known as www.religioustolerance.org and even in some mainstream media sources. If you would like, I can even point to a few specific cases in Egypt and Sudan.

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Old 02-07-2004, 09:58 AM   #50
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U2Bama, Saudi Arabia doesn't allow any religion besides Islam to be practiced in the country. Needless to say you're not allowed to convert to another religion. Even in moderate Turkey you're not allowed to proselatise (I know, I murdered the spelling of that word) but that's because it's a strictly secular state, not because it's historically Islamic. I've noticed that a bunch of Islamic countries have pulled the plug on their Islamic affairs departments on their embassy sites, so it's gotten harder to research these laws.
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:16 AM   #51
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verte76:

I knew you were knowledgeable about Saudia Arabia's wahhabist system and I hoped you would add something; thanks. I have some friends who lived over there as young children, and their parents had to "sneak" such dangerous contraband as Bibles and wine into their home.

~U2Alabama
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:46 AM   #52
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I think Saudi Arabia is the only Islamic country with laws like that, but I could be mistaken. I know Jordan does not, and has a small Christian population. Iran might, but because of the political situation it's not possible to research their laws.
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:21 PM   #53
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Egypt has a Christian population of at least 10%, but discrimination is something they face as a daily part of life.

My wife and her family lived in Saudi for a number of years. They lived in an "American compound", to keep their evil western influences from corrupting the Saudi society. Because of the atmosphere created by the Saudis, celebrating Christmas at home was restricted to a small display of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:36 PM   #54
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Yes, Saudi laws require that other religions keep their practices "private". You can get busted if the authorities claim your non-Islamic practices are too public. What the heck is "too public"? Anything that makes some jerk call up the religious police. Again, in fairness to the Saudis, some of their own citizens who are Sunni Moslems do not like these repressive laws. But they are there.
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Old 02-08-2004, 04:37 AM   #55
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Seems like the theme of this whole thread is that 'some' muslims are pretty scary, and so are 'some' christians. And of course the not insignificant matter that both religions break down into any number of sects, with varying beliefs which may or may not draw on a true understanding of the source book.

I don't think the finger pointing of the 'look at what happens in muslim countries' variety holds much water. They are what they are (and it's pretty vile)... but gee I wouldn't want to live in a 'Christian' country either. Or to put it another way, life under a theocracy isn't much fun.

See, that's why secularism is not such a bad idea.
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Old 02-08-2004, 10:51 AM   #56
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No, secularism isn't a bad idea in itself if the idea is not establish one religion at the expense of others. The bad thing about secularism is when you ban everything religious, the way they're doing in the schools in France. I think that's repression. They set up Turkey as a secular state to abolish the sharia, Islamic religious law, that they felt like was holding Turkey back in terms of social and educational development, particularly women's rights. In 1928 literacy in Turkey was only about 10%. Now it's 90%. Secularism has been very good for Turkey, as a whole.
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Old 02-08-2004, 07:26 PM   #57
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its another ''us and them'' and ''right and wrong'' debate...... or rather should that be ''christian and muslim'' debate.....


I dont subscribe to any religion and I have learnt over the last few years to limit what I say in regards to topics like these as I have very strong morals when it comes to ethnocentric issues, however I do know that I see both love, hate, violence and peace displayed in equal levles in both the christian and muslim faiths and I know that both religions have fundamentalists who push these boundaries....................................
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Old 02-08-2004, 08:03 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Oh bull ! You are implying that all Christians follow a similar doctrine.
The irony of this statement is really quite amusing to me.

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Old 02-08-2004, 08:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
Secularism has been very good for Turkey, as a whole.
Yes. Very much so. Around the millennium, the people of Turkey voted en masse to Time trying to get Kemal Ataturk named the most important figure of the century (or millennium or whatever...).

Turkey, while far from perfect, is an example of how religion and secularism are compatible.

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Old 02-08-2004, 09:33 PM   #60
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I hope my original post was not misunderstood as I would never suggest banning religion. It's an inescapable part of the social fabric. I don't like what I've heard of the policy in France.

Actually I think that in any nation that is not damn near 100% homogenous, secularism is the only sane answer. America may be 'one nation under God', but it's far from being the Christian flipside to Iran or Indonesia.
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