Allah and America

[Angela Harlem]

The comment from Lilly which sparked this, I would bet an awful lot was not made with the intention of offence nor out of ignorance. You can make a picture terribly large and eventually come to some conclusions which can just be assumptions.
I sincerely doubt anyone in here lumps all the Christian right together any more than the people who follow Islam.

 

[deep]

Maybe some of you have not looked at the link in the first post in this thread.

Are any of you really defending this man?

Part two:

Some Muslims are like some Christians in that they don?t practice what their bible teaches. Thank God they don?t, or all Muslims would be out "killing Christians and Jews where they find them." Just as there are nominal [in name only] Christians, there are nominal Muslims. Oh, yes, they may pray five times a day, read the Koran, and attend Mosque regularly. But, otherwise, they are regular, law-abiding citizens. The Muslims you need to worry about are the fundamentalist ones that are on a literal jihad to kill Christians and Jews where they find them.

Jihad: In Islam . . .waging war against non-Muslims with the sword.
Microsoft? Encarta? Encyclopedia 2000. ? 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The truth is, you can't tell a good Muslim from an evil one, just by looking at them.

In Matthew 7:16, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, said: By their fruit you will recognize them.

When it comes to fundamentalist Muslims, you need to be on what US Attorney-General John Ashcroft calls a heightened alert until you can judge them by their fruit, even if it means being accused of racial profiling. US Secretary of Transportation Norman Manetta is wrong; this kind of racial profiling is justified. Not all profiling is evil just because the Manetta family was wrongly interred in a US camp in the early 1940s, after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. That was then; this is now.

After all, 19 out of 19 of the 9/11 terrorist bombers were Muslims from the Mideast!

JFC

 

[deep]

from Hagee's site

Part one:

The Holy Bible has internal validity. What it says in one place is in harmony with what it says as a whole. That is not true of the Koran. Mohammed may be quoted as saying one thing in one place and something entirely different elsewhere.

so the Bible teaches peace, justice and respect for people and property

or

raping, killing and pillaging people who are not one's "neighbors"

Deuteronomy 20




10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [1] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them? [2] 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.

thank G*d the fruit trees are spared.

 

[nbcrusader]

Deep, I didn't know you were so interest in theology.

If you were, you would understand that Islam recognizes certain internal conflicts within the Quran and a rule of interpretation holds that subsequent revelations to Mohammed take precedence over prior revelations if there is an inconsistency.

If you are really interested in understanding the Old and New Testament, I will look forward to your posts in the form of a question, rather than what we have here.

 

[BVS]

Deep, I didn't know you were so interest in theology.

If you were, you would understand that Islam recognizes certain internal conflicts within the Quran and a rule of interpretation holds that subsequent revelations to Mohammed take precedence over prior revelations if there is an inconsistency.

If you are really interested in understanding the Old and New Testament, I will look forward to your posts in the form of a question, rather than what we have here.

Do you think the same can be said for "inconsistencies" between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

 

[deep]

Free Your Mind

This is an off-topic forum. Discuss politics, spirituality, religion, world events.

this seems to be the proper forum for this thread and discussion

the crazy right-wing fundamentalist Christians

If this is your conclusion about Hagee you are probably not off the mark.


I hope you do not feel compelled to defend him just because he calls himself a "Christian".

Anymore than a Republican would need to defend David Duke when he called himself a Republican.

 

[nbcrusader]

I'm not here to defend Hagee.

I think you can tell that by the progression of the thread.

Actually, the thread has spent little time discussing Hagee's remarks

 

[nbcrusader]

Do you think the same can be said for "inconsistencies" between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

If you want to discuss specific "inconsistencies", I'd would be more than happy to.

 

[Dreadsox]

Oh please, we do not need yet another debate on the alleged bias of FYM mods. Why can't we just discuss the issues instead?

I am assuming you missed the Laughing winking face....it was said in jest...if you do not like my posts ignore them.

On second thought...that was serious.

 

[Dreadsox]

OK....Back to the "Good" Reverend.

Now, he may not be out enticing people into a modern day "Crusade".

I personally spent some time looking at his site. To each his or her own. I could really give a what this minister says about the religion of Islam is about.

Since is he a minister of the Gospel, I want to see what he is about. What is his message. Well....

[Q]Bible Cure Books (Variety Pack II - Nine Titles)
$54 BOOK O259

DON COLBERT is a licensed medical doctor who specializes in alternative therapies. As a well-trained physician, Dr. Don Colbert believed that he understood the basics for good health until his own health began to fail him. When his own profession was unable to give him answers or help, he turned to other health-related disciplines. He has his own practice and has helped thousands of people discover the joy of walking in divine health and living pain-free after years of suffering.

These books contain findings that your doctor may never have told you!

O259 ? Bible Cures II by Dr. Don Colbert - $54
This offer consists of the following titles:
? The Bible Cure for Menopause
? The Bible Cure for Osteoporosis
? The Bible Cure for Candida/Yeast
? The Bible Cure for ADD/Hypertension
? The Bible Cure for PMS/Mood swings
? The Bible Cure for Memory Loss
? The Bible Cure for High Blood Pressure
? The Bible Cure for Sleeping Disorders
? The Bible Cure for Heartburn/Indigestion


Bible Cure Books are not available for sale individually[/Q]

Not for sale individually. If you have a ADD, by golly you are going to spend the $54 to get the whole collection.

Enough already. Why should I waste any of my brain cells on this piece of dung. I am sure that when the second coming occurs, the good lord will be so proud to have seen his word used to make money for scum like this.

This is what I was getting at recently.

Here is a name. Target the name.

If only he had a cure for my kidney stones.

 

[BVS]

OK....Back to the "Good" Reverend.

Now, he may not be out enticing people into a modern day "Crusade".

I personally spent some time looking at his site. To each his or her own. I could really give a what this minister says about the religion of Islam is about.

Since is he a minister of the Gospel, I want to see what he is about. What is his message. Well....

[Q]Bible Cure Books (Variety Pack II - Nine Titles)
$54 BOOK O259

DON COLBERT is a licensed medical doctor who specializes in alternative therapies. As a well-trained physician, Dr. Don Colbert believed that he understood the basics for good health until his own health began to fail him. When his own profession was unable to give him answers or help, he turned to other health-related disciplines. He has his own practice and has helped thousands of people discover the joy of walking in divine health and living pain-free after years of suffering.

These books contain findings that your doctor may never have told you!

O259 ? Bible Cures II by Dr. Don Colbert - $54
This offer consists of the following titles:
? The Bible Cure for Menopause
? The Bible Cure for Osteoporosis
? The Bible Cure for Candida/Yeast
? The Bible Cure for ADD/Hypertension
? The Bible Cure for PMS/Mood swings
? The Bible Cure for Memory Loss
? The Bible Cure for High Blood Pressure
? The Bible Cure for Sleeping Disorders
? The Bible Cure for Heartburn/Indigestion


Bible Cure Books are not available for sale individually[/Q]

Not for sale individually. If you have a ADD, by golly you are going to spend the $54 to get the whole collection.

Enough already. Why should I waste any of my brain cells on this piece of dung. I am sure that when the second coming occurs, the good lord will be so proud to have seen his word used to make money for scum like this.

This is what I was getting at recently.

Here is a name. Target the name.

If only he had a cure for my kidney stones.

Yeah this guy is from my hometown. His church is huge and has lots of power, they've single handedly changed the liquor laws in their area. I went to a wedding at his church and had the misfortune of meeting this man. He's a very, lets say, strange person. It just scares me the power this man has, and it's spreading.

 

[Dreadsox]

I also found that he held a "MOCK" slave auction as a fund raiser for the church in 1996?

 

[BVS]

I also found that he held a "MOCK" slave auction as a fund raiser for the church in 1996?

Yeah he said "slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone", but after a some flak called it a "student auction".

 

[verte76]

A what........a SLAVE auction? That is bad........singlehandedly changing the liquor laws? If liquor laws helped alcoholism I'd support them, but they don't. Members of my own family became alcoholics during Prohibition. And man, no one can gossip like small town Southerners.

 

[nbcrusader]

slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone

???


Does this moron forget the enormous effort by Christians to abolish slavery?

I will stand with you BVS against this guy.

 

[Lilly]

Oh bull ! You are implying that all Christians follow a similar doctrine. I get tired of this simplistic and uninformed view of the crusades.

sorry nbc, going back and reading my post it wasn't too articulate. it's a rare day i pull the crusades in an argument, cos there's so much technicality to it. the preacher was generalizing all Muslims and their past, so i kind of threw it back out. sorry, i should have gone further to explain it.


and i'm not uninformed on the crusades,

 

[U2Bama]

In some countries where Islam is the predominant religion, laws state that if a person is born into a Muslim family, or coverts to Islam, but then renounces Islam and becomes an atheist or converts to another religion, that person is sentenced to imprisonment or the death penalty for the crime of apostacy. Does anybody know the basis for such laws?

My understanding is that it is in effect today, not just during the middle ages or some distant historic period.

~U2Alabama

 

[GroundBeneathU2]

U2Alabama- where did you hear of such a law, and what countries are you talking about, if you don't mind my asking?
and i don't suppose there's a point to my saying that most people tend to generalize about Muslims based on some fanatics, and hence stigmatize what is a peaceful religion to be 'violent and hateful'. but we all know that, don't we?

 

[U2Bama]

GroundBeneathU2:

I do wish that I were simply "tending to generalize" or whatever, but actually these laws exist and are carried out in several nations including Pakistan, Saudia Arabia and Iran. I have learned about them from several sources over the last few years including Amnesty International, the website known as www.religioustolerance.org and even in some mainstream media sources. If you would like, I can even point to a few specific cases in Egypt and Sudan.

~U2Alabama

 

[verte76]

U2Bama, Saudi Arabia doesn't allow any religion besides Islam to be practiced in the country. Needless to say you're not allowed to convert to another religion. Even in moderate Turkey you're not allowed to proselatise (I know, I murdered the spelling of that word) but that's because it's a strictly secular state, not because it's historically Islamic. I've noticed that a bunch of Islamic countries have pulled the plug on their Islamic affairs departments on their embassy sites, so it's gotten harder to research these laws.

 

[U2Bama]

verte76:

I knew you were knowledgeable about Saudia Arabia's wahhabist system and I hoped you would add something; thanks. I have some friends who lived over there as young children, and their parents had to "sneak" such dangerous contraband as Bibles and wine into their home.

~U2Alabama

 

[verte76]

I think Saudi Arabia is the only Islamic country with laws like that, but I could be mistaken. I know Jordan does not, and has a small Christian population. Iran might, but because of the political situation it's not possible to research their laws.

 

[nbcrusader]

Egypt has a Christian population of at least 10%, but discrimination is something they face as a daily part of life.

My wife and her family lived in Saudi for a number of years. They lived in an "American compound", to keep their evil western influences from corrupting the Saudi society. Because of the atmosphere created by the Saudis, celebrating Christmas at home was restricted to a small display of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

 

[verte76]

Yes, Saudi laws require that other religions keep their practices "private". You can get busted if the authorities claim your non-Islamic practices are too public. What the heck is "too public"? Anything that makes some jerk call up the religious police. Again, in fairness to the Saudis, some of their own citizens who are Sunni Moslems do not like these repressive laws. But they are there.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Seems like the theme of this whole thread is that 'some' muslims are pretty scary, and so are 'some' christians. And of course the not insignificant matter that both religions break down into any number of sects, with varying beliefs which may or may not draw on a true understanding of the source book.

I don't think the finger pointing of the 'look at what happens in muslim countries' variety holds much water. They are what they are (and it's pretty vile)... but gee I wouldn't want to live in a 'Christian' country either. Or to put it another way, life under a theocracy isn't much fun.

See, that's why secularism is not such a bad idea.

 

[verte76]

No, secularism isn't a bad idea in itself if the idea is not establish one religion at the expense of others. The bad thing about secularism is when you ban everything religious, the way they're doing in the schools in France. I think that's repression. They set up Turkey as a secular state to abolish the sharia, Islamic religious law, that they felt like was holding Turkey back in terms of social and educational development, particularly women's rights. In 1928 literacy in Turkey was only about 10%. Now it's 90%. Secularism has been very good for Turkey, as a whole.

 

[OzAurora]

its another ''us and them'' and ''right and wrong'' debate...... or rather should that be ''christian and muslim'' debate.....


I dont subscribe to any religion and I have learnt over the last few years to limit what I say in regards to topics like these as I have very strong morals when it comes to ethnocentric issues, however I do know that I see both love, hate, violence and peace displayed in equal levles in both the christian and muslim faiths and I know that both religions have fundamentalists who push these boundaries....................................

 

[melon]

Oh bull ! You are implying that all Christians follow a similar doctrine.

The irony of this statement is really quite amusing to me.

Melon

 

[melon]

Secularism has been very good for Turkey, as a whole.

Yes. Very much so. Around the millennium, the people of Turkey voted en masse to Time trying to get Kemal Ataturk named the most important figure of the century (or millennium or whatever...).

Turkey, while far from perfect, is an example of how religion and secularism are compatible.

Melon

 

[Kieran McConville]

I hope my original post was not misunderstood as I would never suggest banning religion. It's an inescapable part of the social fabric. I don't like what I've heard of the policy in France.

Actually I think that in any nation that is not damn near 100% homogenous, secularism is the only sane answer. America may be 'one nation under God', but it's far from being the Christian flipside to Iran or Indonesia.