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Old 06-22-2006, 11:44 PM   #76
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I don't understand the endless hand-wringing about our treatment of captured terrorists on the part of some, mostly on the left.
If this was conventional war and we were talking about captured enemy combantants in uniform I would hope our government would follow the Geneva Conventions to the letter. But terrorists are by profession unlawful combantants and thus fall outside the rules of war. He doesn't wear a uniform, he hides among civilians. targets mainly innocents and no specific government can be held responsible for his actions. It is my believe that he is entitled to no protections. But we give them humane treatment anyway because we are a humane and moral people and don't want to lower ourselves to their level. On the rare, and they are rare, occasions that we fail to do this, we are as a people shocked & disgraced. Congressional heaings and military investigations follow and guilty parties are held responsible. That in itself makes us, for lack of a better term, better than them.

Bottom line, while I certainly understand the logic behind "Don't become a monster to kill a monster", if the detainment and interrogation of captured terrorists is partly responsible for the fact that there has been no new attacks on American soil in 5 years, I'm fine with it...within reason.
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Old 06-22-2006, 11:48 PM   #77
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Originally posted by INDY500
I don't understand the endless hand-wringing about our treatment of captured terrorists on the part of some, mostly on the left.
If this was conventional war and we were talking about captured enemy combantants in uniform I would hope our government would follow the Geneva Conventions to the letter. But terrorists are by profession unlawful combantants and thus fall outside the rules of war. He doesn't wear a uniform, he hides among civilians. targets mainly innocents and no specific government can be held responsible for his actions. It is my believe that he is entitled to no protections. But we give them humane treatment anyway because we are a humane and moral people and don't want to lower ourselves to their level. On the rare, and they are rare, occasions that we fail to do this, we are as a people shocked & disgraced. Congressional heaings and military investigations follow and guilty parties are held responsible. That in itself makes us, for lack of a better term, better than them.

Bottom line, while I certainly understand the logic behind "Don't become a monster to kill a monster", if the detainment and interrogation of captured terrorists is partly responsible for the fact that there has been no new attacks on American soil in 5 years, I'm fine with it...within reason.
The problem with your argument is that they few the US as terrorists, so that justifies them doing cruel things.

And who gives a shit about American Soil, or Canadian Soil, or Middle Eastern Soil.. There shouldn't be any attacks anywhere on this globe.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:22 AM   #78
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Originally posted by bcrt2000

. There shouldn't be any attacks anywhere on this globe.
Well, a nice sentiment. Tell you what, get every nation around the world to agree to total disarmament, and you have my vote.
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:55 AM   #79
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I don't understand the endless hand-wringing about our treatment of captured terrorists on the part of some, mostly on the left.
I think you answered your own question.
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Originally posted by INDY500
But we give them humane treatment anyway because we are a humane and moral people and don't want to lower ourselves to their level. On the rare, and they are rare, occasions that we fail to do this, we are as a people shocked & disgraced. Congressional heaings and military investigations follow and guilty parties are held responsible. That in itself makes us, for lack of a better term, better than them.
That's pretty much it. We, as a nation don't tolerate inhumane behavior. And when our own people on rare occasions do inhumane things we are rightly shocked and take measures to hold the guilty responsible. We are shocked and wring our hands and have hearings and investigations because this is not what we are about.

I don't think the drafters of the Constitution, when they forbade "cruel and unusual punishment" meant that these were rights for U.S. citizens. Obviously they could only be applied within our borders (we can't force the citizens of other countries to abide by our rules) but I don't think that they meant it was fine for other human beings (who are not citizens. or lawful combatants) to endure "cruel and unusual punishment."

And what real evidence is there that torturing suspects has prevented another terrorist attack on our soil. Is that why the Brits got bombed last summer? Cause they weren't torturing people enough? And the same with Spain?

One reason we may not have experienced another attack is that Al Qaeda has been disrupted (despite, not BECAUSE of the war in Iraq. Though one could argue that all the jihadists are distracted with killing our soldiers and Iraqi people over there rather than plotting and carrying out more attacks on the U.S. Which the most cynical of people could argue is a good thing. Better the Iraqi people and the our guys who volunteered to go over there then all us civilians, huh).

Another reason is that we have taken measures (though I'm sure there are many more holes to plug) to secure our safety and tighten security.

These terrorists are not cowards (though it feels good to say they are). They are fanatical, willing to suffer and to die for their demented beliefs. They won't be swayed from terrorist acts simply because they hear about their fellows being tortured.

And as posters on both sides of the debate have pointed out, there is no proof that torturing suspects got valuable information from a suspect that led to an attack on U.S. soil being prevented.
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Old 06-23-2006, 02:30 AM   #80
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Originally posted by maycocksean




I don't think the drafters of the Constitution, when they forbade "cruel and unusual punishment" meant that these were rights for U.S. citizens. Obviously they could only be applied within our borders (we can't force the citizens of other countries to abide by our rules) but I don't think that they meant it was fine for other human beings (who are not citizens. or lawful combatants) to endure "cruel and unusual punishment."



I don't get it

when people put the "so-called founding fathers" on a pedestal


I am sure you have heard of slavery, and the treatment the "Indians" received at the hands of these "fathers"

perhaps, Father could be the appropriate term

rape can lead to paternity
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Old 06-23-2006, 03:14 PM   #81
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I don't get it

when people put the "so-called founding fathers" on a pedestal


I am sure you have heard of slavery, and the treatment the "Indians" received at the hands of these "fathers"

perhaps, Father could be the appropriate term

rape can lead to paternity
All true. I'm not trying to put the "founding fathers" on any kind of pedestal.

Perhaps you missed the point of my post. Which was that just because people are not U.S. citizens or "unlawful combatants" does not give us the the right to abuse any way we like.
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Old 06-23-2006, 05:24 PM   #82
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We are shocked and wring our hands and have hearings and investigations because this is not what we are about.

It's the, as I put it, "endless" handwringing. Or better stated, the propensity by some to dwell on the negative, mostly for political gain. It's a defeatist attitude in a war we can't afford to lose and it leads one to believe that some people actually hope we don't win.

And what real evidence is there that torturing suspects has prevented another terrorist attack on our soil.

None, none what-so-ever. But you can't say that it hasn't either and if there was, would that make it suddenly OK? I am pro-detainment (Gitmo) but not pro-torture. Who is? But, if you believe this is a real war (some don't) then it's kill them before they, as they've stated is their goal, kill us. At which point you have to trust those in charge to make the right decisions.
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:18 PM   #83
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Originally posted by INDY500


It's the, as I put it, "endless" handwringing. Or better stated, the propensity by some to dwell on the negative, mostly for political gain. It's a defeatist attitude in a war we can't afford to lose and it leads one to believe that some people actually hope we don't win.
I agree

We have to win a war we probably shouldn't have entered in the first place. Some dwell on the fact that we shouldn't even be there, others dwell on the fact we have to win at all costs. I think we'd all be better off trying to find the place in the middle. We have to win, but we aren't going to stoop to the enemies level and we need to just 'move the fuck on' from the debate over the politics of the war. It's over and done. Win and do it right. It's the only way we can hope to alleviate this mistake.

Maybe if we had some accountability up top we could all follow suit, put an end to the political bickering and just hope for a victory that both secures Iraq and alleviates this huge mistake, if just for the forseeable future. This won't happen because our leadership is at one of the extremes and the opposition leadership is at the other. Endless bullshit.


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At which point you have to trust those in charge to make the right decisions.
This seems to be the biggest problem of all.
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Old 06-25-2006, 02:20 AM   #84
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I agree

We have to win a war we probably shouldn't have entered in the first place. Some dwell on the fact that we shouldn't even be there, others dwell on the fact we have to win at all costs. I think we'd all be better off trying to find the place in the middle. We have to win, but we aren't going to stoop to the enemies level and we need to just 'move the fuck on' from the debate over the politics of the war. It's over and done. Win and do it right. It's the only way we can hope to alleviate this mistake.

Maybe if we had some accountability up top we could all follow suit, put an end to the political bickering and just hope for a victory that both secures Iraq and alleviates this huge mistake, if just for the forseeable future. This won't happen because our leadership is at one of the extremes and the opposition leadership is at the other. Endless bullshit.




This seems to be the biggest problem of all.
Seems like you summed it up pretty well.
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Old 06-25-2006, 12:05 PM   #85
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Originally posted by U2DMfan


I agree

We have to win a war we probably shouldn't have entered in the first place. Some dwell on the fact that we shouldn't even be there, others dwell on the fact we have to win at all costs. I think we'd all be better off trying to find the place in the middle. We have to win, but we aren't going to stoop to the enemies level and we need to just 'move the fuck on' from the debate over the politics of the war. It's over and done. Win and do it right. It's the only way we can hope to alleviate this mistake.

Maybe if we had some accountability up top we could all follow suit, put an end to the political bickering and just hope for a victory that both secures Iraq and alleviates this huge mistake, if just for the forseeable future. This won't happen because our leadership is at one of the extremes and the opposition leadership is at the other. Endless bullshit.






This seems to be the biggest problem of all.

Well said.
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Old 06-28-2006, 08:36 AM   #86
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Christina Menchaca, 18, center, and other family members visit the flag draped casket of Army Pfc. Kristian Menchaca during a public viewing in Brownsville, Texas, Tuesday, June 27, 2006

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