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Old 06-21-2006, 08:43 AM   #46
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(AP)Tucker's family grieved in private, saying in a statement they were devastated by the news, but were heartened by the community support.

"Tom has gained a much larger family through this ordeal than he had when he left home to go help to free the Iraqi people and protect his country from the threat of terrorism," the family said.

On Monday, Tucker's family released the text of a phone message that Tucker recently left on an answering machine, telling his mother to be proud of him.

"I'm just gonna go on on a little vacation but I'll be back before you know it," the message says.

Menchaca grew up in a close-knit extended Mexican-American family in Houston. His uncle and cousins remembered a sweet, quiet young man who was proud to be in the military and later wanted to join the U.S. Border Patrol.

"He talked about how happy he was that he was serving his country," said Sylvia Grice, 37, Menchaca's cousin.

Relatives said he married his wife, 18-year-old Christina Menchaca, of Big Spring, a few weeks before being deployed to Iraq. Christina Menchaca has declined to speak to reporters.

"Everyone he met liked him. He had that kind of personality," Grice said. "He liked to help people. He was just the kind of person you enjoyed being with."

Mario Vasquez said his nephew had been interested in the military since he was a young boy.

Menchaca's family last saw him in May, when he was on leave. Menchaca enrolled in the Army in middle to late 2005, his uncle said.

"I remember seeing him and giving him a lot of money and telling him go enjoy himself," Grice said. "He didn't want to take it. But I still stuck it in his pocket and told him to go out and have fun."

Mario Vasquez said Menchaca and his cousins were very close and he spent much of his childhood visiting and staying in their home. Menchaca's mother eventually moved from another part of town with her two sons to a duplex a few blocks away. She had recently moved to Brownsville.
'It was working out for him'

Tucker graduated from high school in 1999 and worked a variety of construction jobs before he decided to join the Army last summer. He seemed to have found something of what he was looking for, said Tim McDonald, who co-owns McDonald Development of Redmond, where Tucker worked as a framer.

"He said he liked it, and it was working out for him," McDonald said.

Josh Tolman, who went to high school with Tucker, said he and his friend would angle for catfish in the Prineville Reservoir and in fall head into the Ochoco Mountains to hunt deer and elk with their families.

"We helped each other work on (our trucks), then go play with them in the woods," Tolman said.
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Old 06-21-2006, 02:16 PM   #47
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My prayers are with their families.

This is appalling.

19 Republican Senators think the terrorists who murdered these two US soldiers today deserve amnesty.

SEC. 1209. SENSE OF CONGRESS ON THE GRANTING OF AMNESTY TO PERSONS KNOWN TO HAVE KILLED MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES IN IRAQ.

(a) Findings.--Congress makes the following findings:

(1) The Armed Forces of the United States and coalition military forces are serving heroically in Iraq to provide all the people of Iraq a better future.

(2) The Armed Forces of the United States and coalition military forces have served bravely in Iraq since the beginning of military operations in March of 2003.

(3) More than 2,500 members of the Armed Forces of the United States and members of coalition military forces have been killed and more than 18,000 injured in operations to bring peace and stability to all the people of Iraq.

(b) Sense of Congress.--It is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the Government of Iraq should not grant amnesty to persons known to have attacked, killed, or wounded members of the Armed Forces of the United States; and

(2) the President should immediately notify the Government of Iraq that the Government of the United States strongly opposes granting amnesty to persons who have attacked members of the Armed Forces of the United States.
Allard (R-CO)
Bond (R-MO)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Cornyn (R-TX)
DeMint (R-SC)
Enzi (R-WY)
Graham (R-SC)
Hagel (R-NE)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lott (R-MS)
McCain (R-AZ)
Sessions (R-AL)
Stevens (R-AK)
Thomas (R-WY)
Warner (R-VA)
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Old 06-21-2006, 02:37 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
This is appalling.

19 Republican Senators think the terrorists who murdered these two US soldiers today deserve amnesty.

Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
(1) the Government of Iraq should not grant amnesty to persons known to have attacked, killed, or wounded members of the Armed Forces of the United States; and

(2) the President should immediately notify the Government of Iraq that the Government of the United States strongly opposes granting amnesty to persons who have attacked members of the Armed Forces of the United States.
I think this means the 19 Republican Senators are saying they DO NOT deserve amnesty.
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Old 06-21-2006, 02:45 PM   #49
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No they did not vote to ratify the admendment.
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Old 06-21-2006, 04:39 PM   #50
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No they did not vote to ratify the admendment.
An amendment to what?
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:23 AM   #51
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This whole thread is disturbing. You are either on the side of civilization or you are not. American soldiers show incredible restraint in Iraq - despite the occasional lapses, especially compared to the enemy.

To compare barking dogs in one's face with having one's head sawed off by a dull blade you are showing a complete inability to think logically.

There is no denying that Islamo-fascism is a danger to everyone, Republican, Democrat, Christian, Jew, Muslim...Like the Gestapo, they use fear and propoganda very well. And like the Gestapo, they are using a portion of Western Civilization to maintain support and sympathy. Believe it or not, most people in England and the US would rather leave Hitler alone than go to war.

Let me ask you a question, and please think about it before you answer. Let's say you are mysteriously transported to a dark alley in a small town in the Middle East. It's late at night. You hear footsteps behind you. Would you rather see the tan uniforms of the US Military or a band of young Muslim males with their faces covered?
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Old 06-22-2006, 09:54 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
To compare barking dogs in one's face with having one's head sawed off by a dull blade you are showing a complete inability to think logically.


and your post indicates just how much torture policies have destroyed us as a civilization.

if you think all that has gone on in American gulags is barking dogs, then you'd better investigate the hundred or so people who have died in American custody since 9-11.

even if we had politicians who didn't endorse torture or a defense secretary who laughs off waterboarding as a "coercive interrogation technique," i am sure these soldiers would have been beheaded anyway. however, what was once a difference between civilization and barbarism has now been degraded by the present adminsitration into a mere a difference in degree.

it's quite simple: torture is always wrong. you're either against torture or you're not. and torture is bad policy because corrupts the nation that endorses it. it will prove our undoing in this war. if, as you say, Islamo-fascism is a danger to everyone, by which we must mean Western Civilization, then how can you support destroying our moral compass in order to save it?
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:01 PM   #53
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There is no denying the evil that is torture nor how corrupting it can be to the individuals and society that practice it. But unfortunately it works and elected officials, responsible above all for the protection of their citizens, have the obligation to do what is necessary--and only what is necessary--to get information that could prevent mass murder.

We used the domestic-crime model when we dealt with terrorists in the 90's and where did that get us?
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:09 PM   #54
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There is no denying the evil that is torture nor how corrupting it can be to the individuals and society that practice it. But unfortunately it works and elected officials, responsible above all for the protection of their citizens, have the obligation to do what is necessary--and only what is necessary--to get information that could prevent mass murder.


no! this is TOTALLY wrong! torture does NOT work -- it gives you bad information because a man will say anything to get you to stop torturing him.

and this is also to sidestep the issue of what it means to actually win the war and defend our civilization -- if we have to resort to torture, then we have already lost. further, when torture is condoned, you open up intelligence gathering to sloppy, quick-fix methods, and it degenerates into a playground for sadists. think of Stalin's NKVD who couldn't solve a crime, but terrorized the USSR. a regime that tortures will ruin it's own intelligence service and make us all less safe.

but, aside from that, let's take a look at a book i think i'm going to start a thread on, Ron Suskind's The One Percent Doctrine. here's an except from a review of the book by the Washington Post:

[q]One example out of many comes in Ron Suskind's gripping narrative of what the White House has celebrated as one of the war's major victories: the capture of Abu Zubaydah in Pakistan in March 2002. Described as al-Qaeda's chief of operations even after U.S. and Pakistani forces kicked down his door in Faisalabad, the Saudi-born jihadist was the first al-Qaeda detainee to be shipped to a secret prison abroad. Suskind shatters the official story line here.

Abu Zubaydah, his captors discovered, turned out to be mentally ill and nothing like the pivotal figure they supposed him to be. CIA and FBI analysts, poring over a diary he kept for more than a decade, found entries "in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3" -- a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. All three recorded in numbing detail "what people ate, or wore, or trifling things they said." Dan Coleman, then the FBI's top al-Qaeda analyst, told a senior bureau official, "This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality."

Abu Zubaydah also appeared to know nothing about terrorist operations; rather, he was al-Qaeda's go-to guy for minor logistics -- travel for wives and children and the like. That judgment was "echoed at the top of CIA and was, of course, briefed to the President and Vice President," Suskind writes. And yet somehow, in a speech delivered two weeks later, President Bush portrayed Abu Zubaydah as "one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States." And over the months to come, under White House and Justice Department direction, the CIA would make him its first test subject for harsh interrogation techniques.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...901211_pf.html

[/q]



we tortured an innocent, mentally disturbed man, and then acted on that "intelligence."
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Old 06-22-2006, 12:52 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Irvine511

no! this is TOTALLY wrong! torture does NOT work -- it gives you bad information because a man will say anything to get you to stop torturing him.
And you know this because...?

Never works? Obviously a man can't tell you what he doesn't know, that's why only trained interrogators, not sadomastic punks like Lynndie England, should be involved. But to say "torture"--if we must use that word--never works is to say no espionage, surrveillance or intelligence operations work. They work all the time, we just don't hear about it.
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:04 PM   #56
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[B]

And you know this because...?

well, and this is a shitty trump card, but aside from the example i just gave you from the Suskind book, i do have friend who work in the intelligence community and they all agree that it's a bad way of going about getting information.

it's also common sense.

and when has torture ever worked? Salem? the Spanish Inquisition? Nazi Germany? Stalin's Russia? East Germany?

show me an example of when torture DOES work -- and "24" doesn't count.


[q]Never works? Obviously a man can't tell you what he doesn't know, that's why only trained interrogators, not sadomastic punks like Lynndie England, should be involved.[/q]

but as i just explained, as we saw in the USSR, it's when you allow torture that the sadomastic punks like Lynndie England, and more importantly, her superiors, take over and kick out those who are skilled. what evidence do you have that only trained interrogators are waterboarding? do the following things sound to you like they were done by trained interrogators:

[q]Beating; punching with fists; use of truncheons; kicking; slamming against walls; stretching or suspension (to tear ligaments or muscles to cause asphyxia); external electric shocks; forcing prisoners to abase and to urinate on themselves; forced masturbation; forced renunciation of religion; false confessions or accusations; applying urine and feces to prisoners; making verbal threats to a prisoner and his family; denigration of a prisoner's religion; force-feeding; induced hypothermia and exposure to extreme heat; dietary manipulation; use of sedatives; extreme sleep deprivation; mock executions; water immersion; "water-boarding"; obstruction of the prisoner's airway; chest compression; thermal burning; rape; dog bites; sexual abuse; forcing a prisoner to watch the abuse or torture of a loved one.

~ from Stephen Miles, a medical ethicis in his forthcoming book, "Oath Betrayed." His sources are 35,000 pages of FOIAed government documents or credible witness testimony.
[/q]


[q]But to say "torture"--if we must use that word--never works is to say no espionage, surrveillance or intelligence operations work. They work all the time, we just don't hear about it.[/q]



i'm not sure what you mean here. can you explain?
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:28 PM   #57
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Originally posted by Irvine511


[q]But to say "torture"--if we must use that word--never works is to say no espionage, surrveillance or intelligence operations work. They work all the time, we just don't hear about it.[/q]



i'm not sure what you mean here. can you explain?
Love to, but you'll have to wait until after I get back from work for my brilliant and unassailable rebuttal.
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:34 PM   #58
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Love to, but you'll have to wait until after I get back from work for my brilliant and unassailable rebuttal.


will look forward to it.



also, for the sake of argument, let me toss this idea out there for discussion -- to fight barbarians, is it necessary to become more like them?
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Old 06-22-2006, 01:40 PM   #59
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I am leaning towards yes. How are we supposed to act. Should we start fighting the Napoleanic way, where we march in formation a few feet at a time, fire up our enemies and then wait for them to do the same? No we must adapt our fighting skills to win.
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Old 06-22-2006, 02:09 PM   #60
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Obviously, there is conflicting evidence on the effectiveness of what we are calling torture. For obvious security reasons, ever successful application is not publicized and we may never be able to accurately quantify a success rate on publicly available data, despite the anecdotal tales of success or failure.

As Irvine notes, this is a secondary issue to a broader philosophical question on the use of torture. There are a few potential standards to set. One, torture is always wrong in every context. Two, torture can be used in limited circumstances to gain necessary intelligence, but should not be used as a way of instilling fear in the general public. Three, torture is a valid way to sway behavior of the general public through the fear of harm.

The issue we face is whether follow standards one or two (though, there will always be someone who claims we are at standard three). The bulk of the discussion has centered on our ability to influence or “win” the hearts and minds of the Islamic world. Some suggest that failure to remain by standard one hurts our ability to obtain and maintain influence in the region. Of course, this is impossible to measure as there have always been the isolated incidents that mar any attempt to demonstrate a consistent high moral ground. We really have no evidence that parties stop being bad because other parties always remain good.

To Irvine’s subsequent question, do we “become barbarians to fight them?” I don’t think we let their activities or moral standards alone determine our course of action, but we need to modify our own course of action to most effectively achieve the desired results.

I guess the best way to answer this second question is by trying to define what makes “them” barbarians? I think the predominant factor is the use of fear to achieve goals through consistent targeting of civilians, especially in public settings. I do not believe we’ve started down that road as a response, nor do I think it would be that effective.
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