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Old 06-20-2006, 11:20 AM   #16
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I admitted a while ago of being for Torture. I am kind of against it now. But these insurgents must pay for there actions and I would hope they die in a brutal way.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:29 AM   #17
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Originally posted by Justin24
I admitted a while ago of being for Torture. I am kind of against it now. But these insurgents must pay for there actions and I would hope they die in a brutal way.
Until Americans die in a brutal way, and you'll be flip flopping again? Would it be too much to ask to think these things through before any incidents occur?
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:31 AM   #18
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Originally posted by Irvine511
wouldn't that make them more likely to "torture, behead or whatever" the next American soldiers to get captured?
With this line of thinking, I would expect to see sympathy and understanding for the soldiers involved in the Haditha matter.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:34 AM   #19
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My point is, why should we in a war situation have to be humane to our enemy( Al-Qaeda, Taliban etc) such as giving them medical attention if they are wounded. These insurgents show no remorse for anyone and believe this is the will of Allah.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
My point is, why should we in a war situation have to be humane to our enemy( Al-Qaeda, Taliban etc) such as giving them medical attention if they are wounded. These insurgents show no remorse for anyone and believe this is the will of Allah.
Do your standards depend on that of your enemy or do you follow your own path?
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:47 AM   #21
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Follow my own path.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:50 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Justin24
My point is, why should we in a war situation have to be humane to our enemy( Al-Qaeda, Taliban etc) such as giving them medical attention if they are wounded. These insurgents show no remorse for anyone and believe this is the will of Allah.
How is this going to help us in any way? How is this going to help anyone? What would we or anyone get out of this way of acting?
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:51 AM   #23
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With this line of thinking, I would expect to see sympathy and understanding for the soldiers involved in the Haditha matter.


ah, the "matter" (not the massacre).

please explain this line of thinking, as it is lost on me.

are we now creating moral equivalency between American soldiers and insurgents? is one no better than the other? is our way of life really no better than either an Islamist theocracy or a murderous dictatorship? are American soldiers not bound by any rules at all like the insurgents they are battling.

i suppose this falls into the line of thought that seeks to prove that killing is wrong by killing people, or that would torture the torturers.
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Old 06-20-2006, 11:59 AM   #24
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How is this going to help us in any way? How is this going to help anyone? What would we or anyone get out of this way of acting?
By not helping them if they are injured, it could result in the death of your enemy, if we were to help them we would still be an "infedel" in there eyes and they would still want us dead. The US miltary needs to adapt in fighting this new kind of war, no remose from them should mean no remose for them.

what I would like to know is, the videos I have seen of Al-Qaedas number 2 man, he says he wants the west out of the middle east. If the US were to completly pull out of the middle east, would that cease any future terrorist attacks?
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:13 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Irvine511
please explain this line of thinking, as it is lost on me.

are we now creating moral equivalency between American soldiers and insurgents? is one no better than the other? is our way of life really no better than either an Islamist theocracy or a murderous dictatorship? are American soldiers not bound by any rules at all like the insurgents they are battling.

i suppose this falls into the line of thought that seeks to prove that killing is wrong by killing people, or that would torture the torturers.
Good starting point. I see how your line of thinking can progress if we assume that the US is capable of a higher level of moral behavior than ___ (insurgents, Iraqis, muslims??). Can you define the relative moral levels so we can proceed with the comparison?
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:15 PM   #26
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I was watching a video on ABCnews.com and they said the soldiers had been shot, tortured and beheaded.

I wonder if God really is happy since thats what the twisted version of Islam thinks.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:16 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Justin24


By not helping them if they are injured, it could result in the death of your enemy, if we were to help them we would still be an "infedel" in there eyes and they would still want us dead. The US miltary needs to adapt in fighting this new kind of war, no remose from them should mean no remose for them.

what I would like to know is, the videos I have seen of Al-Qaedas number 2 man, he says he wants the west out of the middle east. If the US were to completly pull out of the middle east, would that cease any future terrorist attacks?
So, Torturing and killing them all would prevent future terrorist attacks??

Let me do some math...

They kill 3 of our folks
We kill 7 of their folks

They kill 17 more of our people
We kill 16 more of their people

We kill their number one guy
They kill 2 of our soldiers

They get a new number 1 guy (which we kill)
Then they kill 3 more soldiers

Then they get another number 1 guy...(etc..)

This equals=
25 Good guys dead
25 Bad guys dead

Looks like the cycle of violence is NOT such a good solution.

And I'm still wondering how torturing them would give us anything in return?
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:23 PM   #28
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There is a 50/50 chance we could get some valuable info out torturing. Can I hear your opinon on how to stop this. And no saying "well we should have not gone in the first place." As that is to late since we are there already.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:36 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Good starting point. I see how your line of thinking can progress if we assume that the US is capable of a higher level of moral behavior than ___ (insurgents, Iraqis, muslims??). Can you define the relative moral levels so we can proceed with the comparison?




this seems like a condescending distraction from the issue at hand which is whether or not the torture policy of Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Gonzales, has made American troops less safe, as well as whether or not it has cheapened what it is they are fighting for. we have abuse by American forces documented in every field of conflict, and the current international moral standing of the United States at its lowest point since Vietnam, possibly ever. these policies have deeply tarnished U.S. prestige abroad, inhibited cooperation with allies and prevented justice for al-Qaeda. not only must the US now battle Islamist terror, but we must now battle to protect the constitution and the Geneva Conventions from those who would bypass them to protect us.

both, seem to me, to be defenses of our civilization, which is what we have been told is threatened by the Islamists who attacked us on 9-11 and is why we fight.

as for the assumption that the US is capable of a higher level of moral behavior than it's enemies, well this has been a working assumption about the US for a century and it reached its apex in WW2 when, by and large, captured POWs were treated with fairness by US forces. we don't kill indisciminately, we don't behead prisoners.

we are also the occupiers. how are we to create any sort of moral justification for the unprovoked invasion of a soverign nation (and rational for all the speachifying about Iraqi democracy and Muslim democacy and how democracy is god's gift to humanity) if we cannot present a more moral alternative to the government we disposed?

unless this is just about oil and military bases, in which case, who cares who gets tortured and killed. if there's no ideology at stake, if there's nothing about this war than a simple land grab and oil field consolidation, then i suppose we shouldn't worry about morality.
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Old 06-20-2006, 12:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
There is a 50/50 chance we could get some valuable info out torturing. Can I hear your opinon on how to stop this. And no saying "well we should have not gone in the first place." As that is to late since we are there already.
No, I'm not going to say we should have not gone there in the 1st nor will I say we should just "Bring the Troops Home" That's wrong.

My opinion is this: Don't torture them. Treat them like humans. Give them a trial. Show them what democracy really is. Take the higher road, and stop the cycle of violence. Fight the violence with Non-violence. MLK did this. Ghandi did this.

Change our foreign policy to a more globally aware policy, rather than going in for our own selfish interests. If we are going to police the world, then I think we should do this by setting a non-violent standard. I believe others will follow.

I am not saying what they are doing is right in any way, and I certainly do not support it. However, I think the only way to persuade is to be the adult, and that would be taking the higher road. If a child smashes the foot of a stranger, do you smash the foot of the child to show him up and prove that its wrong? Or do you set an EXAMPLE by being kind to others, and NOT smashing their feet?
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