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Old 12-08-2005, 03:58 PM   #46
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As investigators try to piece together the final moments before two air marshals shot and killed an American Airlines passenger,

---> questions are arising about whether he made a bomb threat.


Air marshals said Rigoberto Alpizar announced he was carrying a bomb before being killed

----------> but so far no passenger has publicly concurred with that account.

Passengers also say Alpizar's wife pursued him off the plane, saying he was mentally ill, just before he was killed.
there will be more information


just like

the UK tube killing


i arrive at no conclusions until there is more definitive information
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Old 12-08-2005, 04:05 PM   #47
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To start with I want to say that I think the Air Marshalls 100% did the right thing.

That said,

I heard a story on the news last night after some 'research' was done that the method the US Air Marshalls use in firing their weapon is different than many other law enforcement agencies. (I know insert joke here, they pull the trigger.)

These guys are not told to shoot to injure, they are told to shoot to stop the situation. Kind of a different rationale when considering that any shooting they are doing is expected to happen on a plane flying in the air.

I would imagine that if a would-be bomber was shot in the leg, let's say, he would still be able to detonate his device. It makes sense to me that these guys are told to shoot to stop a situation (most of the time to kill) as if a would be bomber is shot in the head or heart, it would be hard for him to detonate anything.

That said, these guys were not on the plane. This incident happened on the jetway, and in my opinion there would be no way the officers would not have known that the situation was not life threatening. The offender (I think it is a federal offense to talk about a bomb in a plane, or airport) reached into his bag after making a scene stating he had a bomb in there. Unfortunately the Marshalls did the right thing.

I think the Marshalls (and obviously this guy's wife) are going to need a lot of special attention in the weeks to come, as I am sure they are all feeling many different things after what transpired.

On a side note,

One of my clients was on TV two nights ago and was interviewed. He stated that he had been flying to NY first class in the second row when a guy in the front row of the plane recognized him. After the flight landed he turned to my client and told him he is doing a very good thing for NYC by rebuilding the WTC at which point a small conversation started and the guy told him he is a federal Air Marshall. My client asked him about it, and how many planes these guys are on, and he said he could not talk too much about it, but that,"...never again will a plane be used in the United States as a weapon."

I liked his quote, and as this happened the next day I started to feel a little better about flying, and am happy to have that system in place...
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Old 12-08-2005, 04:15 PM   #48
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That is very interesting regarding the training. It is likely that the training stems from Delta Force methods developed a few decades ago.
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Old 12-08-2005, 04:30 PM   #49
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This is not about the 19 hi-jackers on 9-11.


This man was not number 20.


Did he ever say bomb?

Are you safer because Marshalls may be quick to draw down on handicapped? Americans?

I am not sure these are the right questions

but I am pretty sure we do not have the answers, yet.


Quote:
Eyewitness: "I Never Heard the Word 'Bomb'"

A passenger on Flight 924 gives his account of the shooting and says Rigoberto Alpizar never claimed to have a bomb
By SIOBHAN MORRISSEY/MIAMI

Posted Thursday, Dec. 08, 2005
At least one passenger aboard American Airlines Flight 924 maintains the federal air marshals were a little too quick on the draw when they shot and killed Rigoberto Alpizar as he frantically attempted to run off the airplane shortly before take-off.

"I don't think they needed to use deadly force with the guy," says John McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker from Sebastian, Fla. "He was getting off the plane." McAlhany also maintains that Alpizar never mentioned having a bomb.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked, 'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they called it."

When the incident began McAlhany was in seat 24C, in the middle of the plane. "[Alpizar] was in the back," McAlhany says, "a few seats from the back bathroom. He sat down." Then, McAlhany says, "I heard an argument with his wife. He was saying 'I have to get off the plane.' She said, 'Calm down.'"

Alpizar took off running down the aisle, with his wife close behind him. "She was running behind him saying, 'He's sick. He's sick. He's ill. He's got a disorder," McAlhany recalls. "I don't know if she said bipolar disorder [as one witness has alleged]. She was trying to explain to the marshals that he was ill. He just wanted to get off the plane."


McAlhany described Alpizar as carrying a big backpack and wearing a fanny pack in front. He says it would have been impossible for Alpizar to lie flat on the floor of the plane, as marshals ordered him to do, with the fanny pack on. "You can't get on the ground with a fanny pack," he says. "You have to move it to the side."

By the time Alpizar made it to the front of the airplane, the crew had ordered the rest of the passengers to get down between the seats. "I didn't see him get shot," he says. "They kept telling me to get down. I heard about five shots."

McAlhany says he tried to see what was happening just in case he needed to take evasive action. "I wanted to make sure if anything was coming toward me and they were killing passengers I would have a chance to break somebody's neck," he says. "I was looking through the seats because I wanted to see what was coming.

"I was on the phone with my brother. Somebody came down the aisle and put a shotgun to the back of my head and said put your hands on the seat in front of you. I got my cell phone karate chopped out of my hand. Then I realized it was an official."

In the ensuing events, many of the passengers began crying in fear, he recalls. "They were pointing the guns directly at us instead of pointing them to the ground," he says "One little girl was crying. There was a lady crying all the way to the hotel."

McAlhany said he saw Alpizar before the flight and is absolutely stunned by what unfolded on the airplane. He says he saw Alpizar eating a sandwich in the boarding area before getting on the plane. He looked normal at that time, McAlhany says. He thinks the whole thing was a mistake: "I don't believe he should be dead right now."
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Old 12-08-2005, 04:54 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
This is not about the 19 hi-jackers on 9-11.


This man was not number 20.


Did he ever say bomb?


You're damn right it is.

Every report starts with "This is the first time a US Air Marshall has had to fire a weapon since the program was ramped up after 9/11."

Supposedly he did say bomb.

I have to imagine that the US Air Marshalls take their job very very seriously (not like others don't) but to use deadly force makes me think that they thought they were in a situation where they HAD to, not wanted to.

Of course, we shall see though...
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Old 12-08-2005, 05:14 PM   #51
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After reading all these posts I've decided the air marshalls most likely did the right thing, or acted as best they could in a confusing situation. I just feel so bad for the wife. I've known a couple of people who are bipolar and they are so wonderful and "normal" when on meds and it sounds like from the reactions of friends and neighbors, that this guy was no exception.
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Old 12-08-2005, 05:38 PM   #52
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I'm sure we will get a full report on the incident after proper interviews are conducted. At his point, one person "not hearing" something heard by others makes a good headline and little else.
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Old 12-09-2005, 12:57 AM   #53
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I'm sure we will get a full report on the incident after proper interviews are conducted. At his point, one person "not hearing" something heard by others makes a good headline and little else.
help me out here because the only people I've heard or read that said he had a bomb were officials. I've yet to see any passengers claim he was saying he had a bomb.

Anyone got some links from passengers quotes stating he had a bomb?

thanks in advance, I'm just curious to know.
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Old 12-09-2005, 09:23 AM   #54
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Well its up from just 1 to 7 people who say he never said bomb.

http://www .orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-planefolo0905dec09,0,3421926.story?page=1&track=rss
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:38 AM   #55
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I have absolute and complete faith in the Federal Air Marshall program. I deal with the FAMs on a regular basis. In my training at work, we have been versed by the FAMs on how they deal with situations. We were given an example of what would happen if they had to react...and if you are not cowering in a corner or have stains in your underwear from their initial reaction...there is a cause to be concerned. TRUST ME. I was in a hotel conference room (not an aircraft) during this training and I don't think ANYONE moved for a minute after the initial demonstration.

The FAMs are professionals. They have an extensive mental decision tree to come to a situation where force is needed. I do not doubt that the FAMs on board this aircraft (and later in the boarding bridge) made a wrong decision. They have very specific keys/terms they are looking for...this is not a situation where they thought they heard a passenger said "bomb" and then they pulled out their guns.
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Old 12-11-2005, 04:12 AM   #56
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Thanks Zoney....this helps instill in me anyway that the FAMs are out there, specifically trained and DOING THEIR JOBS......I am sure they really don't WANT to have to shoot to kill, but they are policing the skies above us and I trust them to do what they are trained if and when they have to. These days to even hint or joke or whisper the word "comb" is just not funny and if people do this they should be prepared to get what they deserve. Good job, FAM's. Keep up the good work!
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