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Old 12-15-2003, 07:12 PM   #16
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And the fact is that for all it's destruction war does brign rapid advances in technology. Though I haven't done intensive reading into aircraft design in a long time (I actually did nearly all of it when I was 12 or 13) I can recall that the B-29 was pretty much miraculous for it's time. The presurized hull was a huge deal as were the completely automated gun turrets, the bomb sighting system. The engines it used were some of the largest and most advanced reciprocating motors ever devised. Much of the technology used in teh B-29 would give Boeing a huge advantage in the post war airline industry, the influence of the B-29 can be seen very strongly in the large prop driven airliners boeing built in the late 40's and early 50's. The achievemnets of the design team should be recognized despite the purpose for which they were working towards.
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Old 12-15-2003, 07:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bunbury


Regardless on your thoughts on nuclear weapons this plane changed the course of history.
So why shouldn't the U.S. display one of it's great achievements?
Great achievements?! If you see the killing of over 100,000 innocent people in one fail sweep a great acheivement then by all means brag about it.
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Old 12-15-2003, 07:45 PM   #18
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...and, arguably, has stopped additional world wars. Two in a thirty-year span, followed by almost 60 years of isolated conflicts.
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Old 12-15-2003, 07:47 PM   #19
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
...and, arguably, has stopped additional world wars. Two in a thirty-year span, followed by almost 60 years of isolated conflicts.
Exactly.

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Old 12-15-2003, 08:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling


Exactly.

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I am very confused....the world wars are preferred to the isolated conflicts? Please clarify

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Old 12-16-2003, 12:04 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Great achievements?! If you see the killing of over 100,000 innocent people in one fail sweep a great acheivement then by all means brag about it.
Besides the fact that the A-bomb finished WWII once in for all it was definitely an achievement.
Not to lessen the lives of the innocent Japanese but what about the victims of Pearl Harbor?
I mean, war is a bloody business and most times no one win, but it had to go down like this.
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Old 12-16-2003, 01:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bunbury


Not to lessen the lives of the innocent Japanese but what about the victims of Pearl Harbor?
First of all the numbers don't even come close. They were both horrific events. If the Japanese put up the weapons they used to bomb us in a museum and didn't explain the destruction it caused believe me Americans would be upset.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bunbury

I mean, war is a bloody business and most times no one win, but it had to go down like this.
Yes it's a fucking business. And even if you do believe that it HAD to go down like this, by no means should it be considered a "great achievement". I'll take your side for a second and agree that it HAD to be done this way, then I would see it as a neccesary evil but never a fucking great achievment.
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Old 12-16-2003, 01:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


First of all the numbers don't even come close. They were both horrific events. If the Japanese put up the weapons they used to bomb us in a museum and didn't explain the destruction it caused believe me Americans would be upset.
Forget numbers, did the Japanese ever warned the US they were going to attack Pearl Harbor?? Or to surrender??
The US at least warned Japan numerous times to surrender or face utter destruction. The Japanese never budged.
Yea, we can debate about this for a long time, we both have our own views.
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Old 12-16-2003, 03:41 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Yes it's a fucking business. And even if you do believe that it HAD to go down like this, by no means should it be considered a "great achievement". I'll take your side for a second and agree that it HAD to be done this way, then I would see it as a neccesary evil but never a fucking great achievment.
BonoVox is right. It should be lamented and mourned as an "achievment". Death and destruction on a massive scale is no achievment to be celebrated. If the plane is there in a museum, it should mark the profound failure of humanity on the highest level.
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Old 12-16-2003, 08:46 AM   #25
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I have noticed that instead of backing up claims with many facts and figures, some people often just spout what flies into their head. With that said, I think that it is necessary to equate any loss of innocent life. Yes it s awful that hundreds of thousands of innocents had to die, but in the long run it probably saved lives. Like I said in my earlier posts, the estimates for an invasion of the Home Islands would have cost way too many lives both American and Japanese. Just look at the horrendous loss of life on islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The Japanese defended these islands with such ferocity that it is hard to believe that they would not have done the same for Hokkaido, Honshu, or Kyushu. It is nice to sit back and think how wonderful it would be to never have to worry about this but is that very realistic? Put yourself in Truman's place. He was faced with the option of invading Japan. How is he going to say to the American people "I am sorrry so many of you had to lose a loved one. I had another option but I would rather sacrifice your son's lives instead." ? As President, his first priority is to Americans and I believe that he acted correctly with these priorities in mind. The dropping of the bomb simply meant that instead of 500,000 Japanese civilians getting killed over the space of a few months instead of 65,000 at one instant. As horrific a moment as this was, it was certainly the much wiser way to gor for a time. However, I agree with most other posters in here that the achievement, as necessary as it was, was not a "great achievement" per se.
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Old 12-16-2003, 08:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I am very confused....the world wars are preferred to the isolated conflicts? Please clarify

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Hey Dread! I think it was me, not you. I replied very quickly. What I'm thinking is that 1. There is a connection between those "isloated conflicts" and the World Wars we fought 2. The former "superpowers" some resposibility for those islolated conflicts, being as how we fueled and funded them 3. Nothing on this planet is every really all that isolated and 4. they, if you add 'em all up, killed propably as many people as the World Wars, but we in the West don't tend to think of that since they weren't in our backyard. I was also questioning what seemed to be Sting's assertion (and I may be misreading him) that since we moved from World Wars to constant, "isloated" conflict, we've found a solution. Doesn't sound like much of a fix to me. I was reacting to the irony....



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Old 12-16-2003, 11:05 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
If the plane is there in a museum, it should mark the profound failure of humanity on the highest level.
The profound failure of humanity was an Emperor who thought he was god and the people who worshiped him.
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Old 12-16-2003, 12:18 PM   #28
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This thread is not about who was right or wrong or if it was necesary or not. The thread is about how this plane should be displayed in this museum.

Regardless of what you believe about this event, it's irresponsible to display the exact plane that dropped the bomb and not explain what happened. It's not revisionist, it's not taking a side on if it was right or wrong, it's just speaking the truth. This is part of history like it or not, but do not ignore it.
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Old 12-16-2003, 01:36 PM   #29
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The display should be in the context of the museum - an Air & Space museum.
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Old 12-16-2003, 02:06 PM   #30
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Firstly, acknowledging that the plane was used to drop a bomb which killed thousands of innocent people is not "self-flagellation." It is a recognition that innocent lives were lost and that is a tragedy. Displaying a sign remembering those killed is not to say that US policy was incorrect, but rather to acknowledge the fact that for better or for worse it led to the deaths of thousands of Japanese people.

Secondly, if you ask me the profound failure of humanity (although I wouldn't describe it in such terms) is that we live in a world in which thousands die every single day from preventable diseases while a minority of the world's population busy themselves with accumulating wealth and resorting to any means to preserve their privileged status in the world.
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