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Old 06-25-2003, 02:52 PM   #46
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I give up.
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Old 06-25-2003, 03:00 PM   #47
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
[B]And if the government can't handle dissent and cannot conceive of why NGOs shy away from being puppets of contributors, then perhaps they should be more intentional about direct aid.
The Governement is taking steps to make certain that the NGO's are working with us not against us. I am all for not giving to NGO's and distributing it ourselves. I think I have said that. Why should a government give money to an organization that is promoting something opposite its foreign policy goals . That would be quite counter productive. Your own original article points out that many NGO's are not batting an eye at this, and some are working with the administration to reach a common language that they agree on.


As to the continued comments alleging that I am not reading(I must be intellectually challenged) or that I need to reread, somewhere in the thread it was questioned why the we in the US feel our tax money is wasted when we help others. That never was my point, and I feel it is interesting to look at exactly how much money the US actually does give.
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Old 06-25-2003, 03:45 PM   #48
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Okay.

This thread was never about how much/how little the US gives in international aid. That's a whole other topic and I'm sure it'd be an interesting discussion. This thread was about the fact that the US government wishes to dictate to NGOs how they should operate. Dread, you're the one trying to make this about whether the US gives enough in international aid. Clearly you think it does, personally I don't think the US (or the majority of other Western countries) give enough but that's another debate.

All I said regarding the US feeling its money is wasted on international aid is that I believe money should be given out of kindness, out of compassion, out of concern for fellow human beings. I don't believe aid should just be seen as a way of justifying foreign policy decisions or of encouraging people to support the actions of Western governments.

And as for the post about it being a legal requirement in Texas to call an ambulance if you witness an accident, all that makes me think is that it's a little sad that people would have to be told to summon help if they see someone in distress. But again, that's not what this thread is about.
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Old 06-25-2003, 04:15 PM   #49
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Okay.

Dread, you're the one trying to make this about whether the US gives enough in international aid. Clearly you think it does, personally I don't think the US (or the majority of other Western countries) give enough but that's another debate.
Um...no But nice of you to try and put it on me . It was a response to you. It was typed in response to your comments where you "used" my words to start it off. I think it is pretty disappointing that you would paint a picture of the citizens of the US in that post in the manner you did. The US does give and give and give. The private and charitable contributions put the US as of 2000 were at 45 Billion for the year 2000. Your characterization of this Nation was out of line. If I am not mistaken, our private and charitable contributions were greater than most of the countries that contributed AID in the year 2000.


Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Okay.
All I said regarding the US feeling its money is wasted on international aid is that I believe money should be given out of kindness, out of compassion, out of concern for fellow human beings. I don't believe aid should just be seen as a way of justifying foreign policy decisions or of encouraging people to support the actions of Western governments.
And nothing in my post said anything about that. Many here have characterized the US pre-9/11 as not having done enough. 100 Billion for one year. The year prior to 9/11. So now we want credit from NGO's that are taking our money, and we are wrong for this?

Now the money collected as TAX money from me should be used in foreign policy. It should be given to NGO's that are working with us and not against us. Asking for some credit from groups that want our $$$ that is a crime. The Peace Corps was a foreign policy tool, that Kennedy wanted started to fight Communism. Let's be real. There were politics in that as well. Absolutely 100% the money collected should be a foreign policy tool, and absolutely, if this is part of the plan to make my country more secure, so be it.

That said, the 45 Billion in from charities, foundations, and private organizations. Money that people contributed willingly out of their pockets should be used to help without any pre-conceived notions. I am not opposed to this, and am proud of the fact that I contribute to this group.


Again, we are asking the distributors, not the people we are helping for credit. The US most definitely should not be giving money to NGO's that are not in line with our Foreign Policy.
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Old 06-25-2003, 04:30 PM   #50
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This isn't about how much the US gives in aid. It's about whether it's okay for the government of the United States to dicate to non-governmental organisations how they should try to help people.

Quote:
Absolutely 100% the money collected should be a foreign policy tool, and absolutely, if this is part of the plan to make my country more secure, so be it.
I don't think aid should be used as a tool of foreign policy, I think it should be about helping people living in the most abject poverty imaginable. If you don't see it that way, fine. Let's agree to disagree.
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Old 06-25-2003, 04:30 PM   #51
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Do we have to give NGOs money? No. Should we? If we truly care to back up our claim that we are all about human rights, then yes I think so. It's called charity and last time I checked charity doesn't come with a bill of sale, nor does it give you a stock in the company with a controlling interest.
On this we agree. Except it is not charity. Charity is when I choose to give my money to an organization to do what they will with it. Hopefully to give/use th emoney in a way that helps someone out.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that our money is to be collected and distributed to other nations in need. This said, it becomes part of the foreign policy tool of the President. I am willing to bet that this is the point that was made at the meeting with the NGO's. Why would we give the money to NGO's that according to your article:

[Q]One paper at the seminar accused NGOs of obstructing prosperity and good health in Africa, another of promoting "anti-capitalist" themes through their criticism of some corporate activities. [/Q]

The wealth of information at USAID clearly stating that they are about capitalism and the spreading of it, why would they want to give these NGO's money.

Also the article ends with this:

[Q]The NGOs invited to take part in the Iraqi program have had their own internal debates over whether to accept the restriction on their media activities, which NGO officials said was unprecedented in USAID agreements.


Mercy Corps and Save the Children/United States have managed to renegotiate the language of the troublesome clause but had not yet decided on Tuesday whether to sign, Mercy Corps and USAID spokespeople said.

"We have had a lot of discussion. But we do remain independent and if our guidelines are violated we reserve the right to suspend our project," said Margaret Larson, Mercy Corps's vice president for communications.

But spokesmen for two other organizations -- ACDI/VOCA and International Relief and Development (IRD) -- said they decided they could live with the restrictions on their independence. [/Q]

It makes me think this is more about Iraq than restrictions on the world. The article is not too clear on this.
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Old 06-25-2003, 04:32 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
And as for the post about it being a legal requirement in Texas to call an ambulance if you witness an accident, all that makes me think is that it's a little sad that people would have to be told to summon help if they see someone in distress. But again, that's not what this thread is about.
Believe me, I know. But unfortunately it does seem that people aren't as willing to get involved and help these days. I guess that's just a sign of the changing times...it is very sad, though.
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Old 06-25-2003, 04:34 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I don't think aid should be used as a tool of foreign policy, I think it should be about helping people living in the most abject poverty imaginable. If you don't see it that way, fine. Let's agree to disagree.
No we do see it that way. I just do not see it beneficially to give it to NGO's that are operating opposite the stated Foreign Policy objectives of my Government.

Painting my position as not wanting to help people in abject poverty is wrong.
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Old 06-25-2003, 04:39 PM   #54
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I guess it might depend then on what those foreign policy objectives are. If they contribute to the detriment of human rights, then I would hope that NGOs would be opposed to them.
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Old 06-25-2003, 05:04 PM   #55
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Whether or not that paper can back up its claims that NGOs are obstructing health and prosperity in Africa has not been shown.
Well, here is a paper on the topic. I am not certain if it is THE paper on the topic.

http://www.aei.org/docLib/20030624_bate.pdf
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Old 06-25-2003, 05:09 PM   #56
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Well, here is a paper on the topic. I am not certain if it is THE paper on the topic.

http://www.aei.org/docLib/20030624_bate.pdf
Yeah, I have read a lot of papers with this position when I was researching my senior paper on the World Bank and IMF. It's coming from a specific ideological viewpoint and making claims within the first few pages that are opinions and not fact. ("wealth means good health" as a header being the first example that jumped out at me) I would take this paper about as seriously as you read the opinion piece in the Guardian which I posted.
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Old 06-25-2003, 05:13 PM   #57
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I would take this paper about as seriously as you read the opinion piece in the Guardian which I posted.
Touche
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Old 06-25-2003, 05:15 PM   #58
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ok, i'm off to meet up with a returned Peace Corps volunteer from Mali. You people have fun. It's been an interesting discussion. Thanks
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Old 06-25-2003, 05:16 PM   #59
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Have a fun evening sula. Thanks for starting this discussion, it's been interesting.
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