Agnosticism - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-31-2006, 12:25 AM   #1
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Agnosticism

I don't want this to come out wrong but...I have noticed that even the most openminded and PC of religious/spiritual people often don't take into account those who just don't believe either way. You'll hear people go on about how all religions are just different ways of being close to god, different ways of reaching god. I hear people telling their kids that religion doesn't matter- as long as you believe in god, that's all that matters. as if that covers all the bases, makes them the most openminded people in the world. That's obviously preferred to people who loudly mouth off about who's going to hell if they don't believe in a particular version involving particular characters. Still, my own parents will say things such as "as long as you believe in any god..." but don't seem to grasp that I actually don't. Now obviously I'm not really concerned about who thinks I will/won't get into heaven as I don't know or care if such a place exists. Just wondering if anyone has experienced the same thing, and what more liberal or "spiritual-not-religious" types honestly believe about people who just don't believe in anything.
__________________

__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 12-31-2006, 01:53 AM   #2
Refugee
 
dazzlingamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The city of blinding lights and amazing coffee - Melbourne.
Posts: 2,468
Local Time: 06:31 AM
Well I do feel that religious people honestly cannot grasp the fact that I don't believe, and in some instances just truly believe that I haven't "got" it yet. That one day i'll finally start beliving and until then, there is something wrong with me.

I think this may be from the fact that they spend most of their time around other religious people and to them its the norm to believe in God (and therefore understand other cultures in their beliefs, even if they don't agree) and that non believers are seen as missing something.

I think our biggest problem is trying to convince that yes we understand that people believe, we KNOW about religion, we just don't care/believe about it and we have made informed choices, and perhaps some of us look towards believers as the ones missing something that they fill with religion.
__________________

__________________
dazzlingamy is offline  
Old 12-31-2006, 02:06 AM   #3
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Well I do feel that religious people honestly cannot grasp the fact that I don't believe, and in some instances just truly believe that I haven't "got" it yet. That one day i'll finally start beliving and until then, there is something wrong with me.
Not all are like this though. It's mainly the judgmental types that happen to be the loudest, so it might seem that ALL religious people are like this, but it's not true. I'm religious, but I happen to think religion is not just "believing in God or not". For me, a religion just IS whatever you believe is right for you. If you believe in being a moral and compassionate human being without a god to lead you, that's just as good a religion as me believing in a god. There's nothing wrong with you or VertigoGal.

As for VertigoGal's question about people who just don't believe in anything, I don't think that's any less informed than people who do believe in something. I don't think that people who don't believe in anything don't believe because they aren't smart enough to know what to believe. Not at all. Like dazzlingamy said, it's an informed choice, just like becoming a Muslim or Jew or Christian or whatever is an informed choice (well, it SHOULD be). If you choose not to believe or care about religion, my assumption would be that you've found other areas of your life that are as fulfilling as religion can be for other people, and that's perfectly fine.

When I was 13, a teacher defined religion with a question, "What is my only comfort in life and in death?" She believes that whatever your answer is, that is your religion. No answer is any more correct or informed than another. It's a very simple way of looking at it and kind of biased since the question is actually Lord's Day 1 of the Heidelberg Catechism, but I think it makes sense.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 12-31-2006, 02:11 AM   #4
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,296
Local Time: 02:31 PM
I have the greatest respect for agnostics. Is it not beautifully truthful and honest to say, "I just don't know?" Many days, I think I am one of you.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:39 AM   #5
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 08:31 PM
I love the glance that occurs when I say I don't believe at all.

Some look at me as if I was the devil in person.
Some people really think people like me, who don't believe, are responsible for all the bad things in thje world.

I totally respect the believe of others, and I would love to receive the same respect.
Where I grew up there were not so many "fundamentalists" and religion wasn't that much of a topic. Nobody would ask what religion you have, so it was not that much of a problem not to believe.

But I also met people that were so intolerant it's disgusting.
Still, I don't care too much about them. And I know there are many more people out there who believe in god, but also accept perfectly well if someone doesn't believe.
So why care about the rest?
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 12-31-2006, 03:34 PM   #6
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I have the greatest respect for agnostics. Is it not beautifully truthful and honest to say, "I just don't know?" Many days, I think I am one of you.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-31-2006, 04:14 PM   #7
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 02:31 PM
thanks for the responses so far...I didn't mean it as an attack at all so I'm glad no one's taken it that way.

so far.
__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:15 PM   #8
Blue Crack Distributor
 
LarryMullen's POPAngel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: I'll be up with the sun, I'm not coming down...
Posts: 53,698
Local Time: 02:31 PM
I finally came to the realization last year I can consider myself an agnostic. When I have had conversations with people, I've gotten understanding, but most of the time just a nod of the head and a "hmm, alright then". Is it that hard to believe I can't place my beliefs firmly in either of the two more socially accepted (in some cases, not all, of course) camps?

And, antiram Thank you.
__________________
LarryMullen's POPAngel is offline  
Old 01-01-2007, 12:19 AM   #9
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I have the greatest respect for agnostics. Is it not beautifully truthful and honest to say, "I just don't know?" Many days, I think I am one of you.
How much of it is conditioning which pulls you back, though? I dont mean to be wording this in a way which offends - either that you were pulled into it by upbringing, or that you didn't come to it from free choice, but I tend to think that it is the opposite in those who believe as it is for me. I personally just cant get to the final stage of agreeing that what I might think is actually real. I wonder if religion is similar in that you can't quite let go of it because ultimately you know what you feel and you cant/dont want to leave that.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 01-01-2007, 01:59 AM   #10
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,296
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


How much of it is conditioning which pulls you back, though? I dont mean to be wording this in a way which offends - either that you were pulled into it by upbringing, or that you didn't come to it from free choice, but I tend to think that it is the opposite in those who believe as it is for me. I personally just cant get to the final stage of agreeing that what I might think is actually real. I wonder if religion is similar in that you can't quite let go of it because ultimately you know what you feel and you cant/dont want to leave that.
Because for a period of time I think I was agnostic. But at the end of the day, I have this feeling there is something out there and it's not based on rational thinking or logic or anything. I have no idea what is out there beyond our tangible world but I feel as if there is something and I am not really sure I can put into words why it is I feel that way.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 01-01-2007, 02:35 AM   #11
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Because for a period of time I think I was agnostic. But at the end of the day, I have this feeling there is something out there and it's not based on rational thinking or logic or anything. I have no idea what is out there beyond our tangible world but I feel as if there is something and I am not really sure I can put into words why it is I feel that way.


Most of the time, this is exactly how I feel. I went through a period where I decided to forget about everything and start from scratch, trying to build what I believe based on myself and not what others told me I should believe. I wanted to be done with religion because there were many things that I found more offensive than peaceful; I was running into more bigots and hypocrites than genuinely compassionate people.

Then I had this experience where one of my best friends died a slow, terrible, painful death. I went to see her and she was so frail, her skin was ghostly white, half her hair was gone, she couldn't sit on her own and just talking took all the energy she could muster, but she would smile and say she felt at peace because she *knew* there was something greater than herself in this world. I decided I wanted to be part of that. Even if it's not true, I don't care. Seeing someone in so much pain, getting worse everyday and knowing that she was going to die, but still completely at peace because she knew the truth as it was the truth to her - this was a turning point for me. Science and logic can't explain how there was joy and peace left in her spirit, so I can only assume that there is something out there greater than any single person.

But that's my truth, the truth that brings me peace. I can't force that on anyone else or even expect them to understand, just like I may not understand what is truth to them.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 01-01-2007, 04:52 AM   #12
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Because for a period of time I think I was agnostic. But at the end of the day, I have this feeling there is something out there and it's not based on rational thinking or logic or anything. I have no idea what is out there beyond our tangible world but I feel as if there is something and I am not really sure I can put into words why it is I feel that way.
Isn't that agnosticism? I reckon there's something there, but I can't tell you what, or actually subscribe to an organised religion over it. I dont think I can even call it god or God. I base this on the extremely limited knowledge I have of 'everything', given the vastness of 'everything' and yet still getting an inkling that it is pretty damn huge and amazing. Life, this world, the planet, it all adds up to something, for me, at least. I've just got no idea of what it might be.
But alternatively I could believe that this is it - all that we see. This wonderous world is in itself the miracle, as is life. So maybe that is the difference between believing and being tentatively optimistic. I dunno. No one does, though. Despite what they believe. As you know already.

Threads like this make me no longer miss our forum fundies. Cant stomach another pulpit lecture on why I'm hell bent when any of us others try and learn what makes another tick in the spiritual dept.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 01-01-2007, 04:58 AM   #13
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje

Then I had this experience where one of my best friends died a slow, terrible, painful death. I went to see her and she was so frail, her skin was ghostly white, half her hair was gone, she couldn't sit on her own and just talking took all the energy she could muster, but she would smile and say she felt at peace because she *knew* there was something greater than herself in this world. I decided I wanted to be part of that. Even if it's not true, I don't care. Seeing someone in so much pain, getting worse everyday and knowing that she was going to die, but still completely at peace because she knew the truth as it was the truth to her - this was a turning point for me. Science and logic can't explain how there was joy and peace left in her spirit, so I can only assume that there is something out there greater than any single person.
I remember reading a bit about this when you were watching her go through it, and then the end, years ago when I think either yourself or I was new here, and so I read and wandered away not wanting to comment to you because it was personal and we knew each other even less then. But anyway, my point is, even if a hope is the most it ends up being, that is surely enough when it gives someone courage and peace. It can't be a bad thing and not even wrong.

Her name was Amanda, right?

Sorry for your loss, Lies. As late as these sentiments might be.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 01-01-2007, 12:51 PM   #14
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,296
Local Time: 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


Isn't that agnosticism? I reckon there's something there, but I can't tell you what, or actually subscribe to an organised religion over it.
I think we're probably just debating the actual definition of agnosticism. I always treated it as a complete "I am unsure of whether there is a God/spiritual being/force/whatever." Whereas I believe there IS something out there, but I am not prepared to restrict it to a Christian God or a Muslim God, etc.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 01-01-2007, 12:59 PM   #15
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 05:31 AM
An innofensive middle ground; I don't see why entertain any concept of a higher power in the absence of any evidence.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com