Agnosticism

[VertigoGal]

I don't want this to come out wrong but...I have noticed that even the most openminded and PC of religious/spiritual people often don't take into account those who just don't believe either way. You'll hear people go on about how all religions are just different ways of being close to god, different ways of reaching god. I hear people telling their kids that religion doesn't matter- as long as you believe in god, that's all that matters. as if that covers all the bases, makes them the most openminded people in the world. That's obviously preferred to people who loudly mouth off about who's going to hell if they don't believe in a particular version involving particular characters. Still, my own parents will say things such as "as long as you believe in any god..." but don't seem to grasp that I actually don't. Now obviously I'm not really concerned about who thinks I will/won't get into heaven as I don't know or care if such a place exists. Just wondering if anyone has experienced the same thing, and what more liberal or "spiritual-not-religious" types honestly believe about people who just don't believe in anything.

 

[dazzlingamy]

Well I do feel that religious people honestly cannot grasp the fact that I don't believe, and in some instances just truly believe that I haven't "got" it yet. That one day i'll finally start beliving and until then, there is something wrong with me.

I think this may be from the fact that they spend most of their time around other religious people and to them its the norm to believe in God (and therefore understand other cultures in their beliefs, even if they don't agree) and that non believers are seen as missing something.

I think our biggest problem is trying to convince that yes we understand that people believe, we KNOW about religion, we just don't care/believe about it and we have made informed choices, and perhaps some of us look towards believers as the ones missing something that they fill with religion.

 

[Liesje]

Well I do feel that religious people honestly cannot grasp the fact that I don't believe, and in some instances just truly believe that I haven't "got" it yet. That one day i'll finally start beliving and until then, there is something wrong with me.

Not all are like this though. It's mainly the judgmental types that happen to be the loudest, so it might seem that ALL religious people are like this, but it's not true. I'm religious, but I happen to think religion is not just "believing in God or not". For me, a religion just IS whatever you believe is right for you. If you believe in being a moral and compassionate human being without a god to lead you, that's just as good a religion as me believing in a god. There's nothing wrong with you or VertigoGal.

As for VertigoGal's question about people who just don't believe in anything, I don't think that's any less informed than people who do believe in something. I don't think that people who don't believe in anything don't believe because they aren't smart enough to know what to believe. Not at all. Like dazzlingamy said, it's an informed choice, just like becoming a Muslim or Jew or Christian or whatever is an informed choice (well, it SHOULD be). If you choose not to believe or care about religion, my assumption would be that you've found other areas of your life that are as fulfilling as religion can be for other people, and that's perfectly fine.

When I was 13, a teacher defined religion with a question, "What is my only comfort in life and in death?" She believes that whatever your answer is, that is your religion. No answer is any more correct or informed than another. It's a very simple way of looking at it and kind of biased since the question is actually Lord's Day 1 of the Heidelberg Catechism, but I think it makes sense.

 

[anitram]

I have the greatest respect for agnostics. Is it not beautifully truthful and honest to say, "I just don't know?" Many days, I think I am one of you.

 

[Vincent Vega]

I love the glance that occurs when I say I don't believe at all.

Some look at me as if I was the devil in person.
Some people really think people like me, who don't believe, are responsible for all the bad things in thje world.

I totally respect the believe of others, and I would love to receive the same respect.
Where I grew up there were not so many "fundamentalists" and religion wasn't that much of a topic. Nobody would ask what religion you have, so it was not that much of a problem not to believe.

But I also met people that were so intolerant it's disgusting.
Still, I don't care too much about them. And I know there are many more people out there who believe in god, but also accept perfectly well if someone doesn't believe.
So why care about the rest?

 

[BVS]

I have the greatest respect for agnostics. Is it not beautifully truthful and honest to say, "I just don't know?" Many days, I think I am one of you.

 

[VertigoGal]

thanks for the responses so far...I didn't mean it as an attack at all so I'm glad no one's taken it that way.

so far.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

I finally came to the realization last year I can consider myself an agnostic. When I have had conversations with people, I've gotten understanding, but most of the time just a nod of the head and a "hmm, alright then". Is it that hard to believe I can't place my beliefs firmly in either of the two more socially accepted (in some cases, not all, of course) camps?

And, antiram Thank you.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I have the greatest respect for agnostics. Is it not beautifully truthful and honest to say, "I just don't know?" Many days, I think I am one of you.

How much of it is conditioning which pulls you back, though? I dont mean to be wording this in a way which offends - either that you were pulled into it by upbringing, or that you didn't come to it from free choice, but I tend to think that it is the opposite in those who believe as it is for me. I personally just cant get to the final stage of agreeing that what I might think is actually real. I wonder if religion is similar in that you can't quite let go of it because ultimately you know what you feel and you cant/dont want to leave that.

 

[anitram]

How much of it is conditioning which pulls you back, though? I dont mean to be wording this in a way which offends - either that you were pulled into it by upbringing, or that you didn't come to it from free choice, but I tend to think that it is the opposite in those who believe as it is for me. I personally just cant get to the final stage of agreeing that what I might think is actually real. I wonder if religion is similar in that you can't quite let go of it because ultimately you know what you feel and you cant/dont want to leave that.

Because for a period of time I think I was agnostic. But at the end of the day, I have this feeling there is something out there and it's not based on rational thinking or logic or anything. I have no idea what is out there beyond our tangible world but I feel as if there is something and I am not really sure I can put into words why it is I feel that way.

 

[Liesje]

Because for a period of time I think I was agnostic. But at the end of the day, I have this feeling there is something out there and it's not based on rational thinking or logic or anything. I have no idea what is out there beyond our tangible world but I feel as if there is something and I am not really sure I can put into words why it is I feel that way.

Most of the time, this is exactly how I feel. I went through a period where I decided to forget about everything and start from scratch, trying to build what I believe based on myself and not what others told me I should believe. I wanted to be done with religion because there were many things that I found more offensive than peaceful; I was running into more bigots and hypocrites than genuinely compassionate people.

Then I had this experience where one of my best friends died a slow, terrible, painful death. I went to see her and she was so frail, her skin was ghostly white, half her hair was gone, she couldn't sit on her own and just talking took all the energy she could muster, but she would smile and say she felt at peace because she *knew* there was something greater than herself in this world. I decided I wanted to be part of that. Even if it's not true, I don't care. Seeing someone in so much pain, getting worse everyday and knowing that she was going to die, but still completely at peace because she knew the truth as it was the truth to her - this was a turning point for me. Science and logic can't explain how there was joy and peace left in her spirit, so I can only assume that there is something out there greater than any single person.

But that's my truth, the truth that brings me peace. I can't force that on anyone else or even expect them to understand, just like I may not understand what is truth to them.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Because for a period of time I think I was agnostic. But at the end of the day, I have this feeling there is something out there and it's not based on rational thinking or logic or anything. I have no idea what is out there beyond our tangible world but I feel as if there is something and I am not really sure I can put into words why it is I feel that way.

Isn't that agnosticism? I reckon there's something there, but I can't tell you what, or actually subscribe to an organised religion over it. I dont think I can even call it god or God. I base this on the extremely limited knowledge I have of 'everything', given the vastness of 'everything' and yet still getting an inkling that it is pretty damn huge and amazing. Life, this world, the planet, it all adds up to something, for me, at least. I've just got no idea of what it might be.
But alternatively I could believe that this is it - all that we see. This wonderous world is in itself the miracle, as is life. So maybe that is the difference between believing and being tentatively optimistic. I dunno. No one does, though. Despite what they believe. As you know already.

Threads like this make me no longer miss our forum fundies. Cant stomach another pulpit lecture on why I'm hell bent when any of us others try and learn what makes another tick in the spiritual dept.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Then I had this experience where one of my best friends died a slow, terrible, painful death. I went to see her and she was so frail, her skin was ghostly white, half her hair was gone, she couldn't sit on her own and just talking took all the energy she could muster, but she would smile and say she felt at peace because she *knew* there was something greater than herself in this world. I decided I wanted to be part of that. Even if it's not true, I don't care. Seeing someone in so much pain, getting worse everyday and knowing that she was going to die, but still completely at peace because she knew the truth as it was the truth to her - this was a turning point for me. Science and logic can't explain how there was joy and peace left in her spirit, so I can only assume that there is something out there greater than any single person.

I remember reading a bit about this when you were watching her go through it, and then the end, years ago when I think either yourself or I was new here, and so I read and wandered away not wanting to comment to you because it was personal and we knew each other even less then. But anyway, my point is, even if a hope is the most it ends up being, that is surely enough when it gives someone courage and peace. It can't be a bad thing and not even wrong.

Her name was Amanda, right?

Sorry for your loss, Lies. As late as these sentiments might be.

 

[anitram]

Isn't that agnosticism? I reckon there's something there, but I can't tell you what, or actually subscribe to an organised religion over it.

I think we're probably just debating the actual definition of agnosticism. I always treated it as a complete "I am unsure of whether there is a God/spiritual being/force/whatever." Whereas I believe there IS something out there, but I am not prepared to restrict it to a Christian God or a Muslim God, etc.

 

[A_Wanderer]

An innofensive middle ground; I don't see why entertain any concept of a higher power in the absence of any evidence.

 

[VertigoGal]

An innofensive middle ground; I don't see why entertain any concept of a higher power in the absence of any evidence.

I agree with you to some extent, honestly. I think it's illogical when people claim atheism is another kind of religion. Failing to believe in something for which there's no basis isn't a positive belief. I don't know if I'm saying that right but I know what you mean and agree to some extent...

When I started this thread I was mostly just thinking about people who say things like "as long as you believe in a god, it doesn't matter which one; all different ways of reaching god" etc etc. I was wondering whether those people included agnostics/atheists or couldn't quite rationalize including them. I don't know why.

I have seen things to make me believe beliefs are worthwhile (similar to your story Lies). Including people with addictions who simply could not overcome them until they started believing in a spiritual power. And I've had people try to use that as a way of convincing me to believe, but all it really proved to me is that beliefs are worthwhile for some and that I almost wish I could have that. Whether or not it's true, I do wish in a way I could convince myself to just believe definitely, but I'm not that good at lying to myself.

 

[Sherry Darling]

I have the greatest respect for agnostics. Is it not beautifully truthful and honest to say, "I just don't know?" Many days, I think I am one of you.

I actually think this is the only really honest way to have faith.

 

[Liesje]

I think it's illogical when people claim atheism is another kind of religion. Failing to believe in something for which there's no basis isn't a positive belief.

But what if religion isn't defined withing the context of a single god or belief? Like I said earlier, I've always thought of one's religion as whatever truth you know to be true for yourself. That doesn't imply that you either believe in a god or you don't. It could include a god, or it could be agnosticism or atheism or universalism, humanism, etc, etc, or even nothing at all.

I think a lot of the Christianity vs. agnosticism/atheism conflict could be more clearly debated if we all had a better understanding of what religion in general is to each other and how we understand it. When Christians define religion only within the context of the Christian God, I think it is very offensive and exclusive. It's like others are being put down before they've even entered the debate. I think maybe that's what you're getting at?

 

[yolland]

I've never personally known anyone who says "As long as you believe in a God..." so I don't really know what to make of that. Perhaps the idea is that the person saying it feels certain that some kind of faith is necessary in order to avoid some sort of bad end, and therefore they reason it's better to at least entertain some version or another of it than to reject it altogether? I don't know; I suppose if I were curious, I would ask them why they say that rather than make assumptions. My own beliefs aren't such that I presume faith or the lack of it to guarantee or deny you something one way or the other, so I would never say something like this. As far as the "different ways" phrase, that's something I personally associate with theological discussions where someone wishes to make the point that overall adherence to some particular religious worldview or another need not entail categorical dismissal of elements drawn from others. I suppose it could also mean other things depending on the context and the person saying it, but that happens to be the situation I'm most familiar with it from.

I have no particular opinion about agnostics as people, and am not sure how I could; I wouldn't know what to say if someone asked me "What do you think about Christians/atheists/Buddhists/Jews" etc. either. Knowing that sort of information about someone really doesn't tell you anything useful about who they are as a person; they might be brilliant or foolish, compassionate or cruel, humble or arrogant, but those are the sorts of things you can only know from personal experience with them.

 

[ZeroDude]

^
That’s why we should avoid making generalisations on the basis of such flaccid criteria. Although to be honest, that goes without saying.

Agnostic guitars sat on the fence…

I would consider myself to be spiritually agnostic, simply because there are, in regards to my own admittedly limited comprehension, no feasible (logical) means or methodology available to humanity, with which we can (in)validate beyond doubt, the existence(s) of an omnipotent creator deity (or deities). Consequently, agnosticism for me is a way in which I can remain open to further revelations, be they scientific or spiritual, without having to subject myself to the lurid stagnation that can arise from more partisan mindsets.

Nevertheless, a person’s spirituality is often fluid and ever changing, so a day may yet come when I consider my previous paragraph to be somewhat hypocritical if not wholly, albeit inadvertently ironic.

 

[VertigoGal]

I've never personally known anyone who says "As long as you believe in a God..." so I don't really know what to make of that. Perhaps the idea is that the person saying it feels certain that some kind of faith is necessary in order to avoid some sort of bad end, and therefore they reason it's better to at least entertain some version or another of it than to reject it altogether? I don't know; I suppose if I were curious, I would ask them why they say that rather than make assumptions. My own beliefs aren't such that I presume faith or the lack of it to guarantee or deny you something one way or the other, so I would never say something like this. As far as the "different ways" phrase, that's something I personally associate with theological discussions where someone wishes to make the point that overall adherence to some particular religious worldview or another need not entail categorical dismissal of elements drawn from others. I suppose it could also mean other things depending on the context and the person saying it, but that happens to be the situation I'm most familiar with it from.

I have no particular opinion about agnostics as people, and am not sure how I could; I wouldn't know what to say if someone asked me "What do you think about Christians/atheists/Buddhists/Jews" etc. either. Knowing that sort of information about someone really doesn't tell you anything useful about who they are as a person; they might be brilliant or foolish, compassionate or cruel, humble or arrogant, but those are the sorts of things you can only know from personal experience with them.

true...just a statement that I've run into a lot lately, I dunno why. I don't really get the point of my thread anymore either but hopefully there were like 2 seconds of decent discussion.

 

[Ormus]

Some thoughts...

I find religion to be a very hard topic to study "objectively," because it seems difficult to crack the shell of "mythic speech." And this "mythos" is so pervasive, for instance, that I find it extremely difficult to even study the history of 1st century A.D. Palestine. Josephus, for instance, is oft cited for his supposedly positive mention of Jesus. On the other hand, nobody mentions that Josephus overtly considered the Roman Emperor Vespatian to be the Messiah in his writings.

I guess this small example illustrates a larger point: it is seemingly impossible to explore religion without bumping into zealots with a larger agenda, whether it be Christian apologists who wish to defend the Bible to every last absurdity, even if those "absurdities" are merely the result of poor translation practices or the sloppy practice of applying modern definitions to archaic cultural practices (in other words, having nothing to do with the literal "Word of God"); or whether it be certain high-profile atheists, whose criticism of religion, while often logically sound in execution, is often predicated on a fallacy--that such aforementioned "religion" is always defined by its most knuckle-dragging, backwards-thinking, and reactionary members.

I find it quite frustrating to wade through an environment like that, and, sometimes, I often wonder if that helps breed "agnosticism" for some people. And it should be noted that "agnosticism"--if literally defined as not knowing the nature of God, in contrast to the Abrahamic insistence of a rigid, knowable nature--is part of the theology of certain religions, such as the Advaita Vedānta school of Hinduism, with "God" being beyond sensory and mental comprehension ("Nirguna Brahman"), and, of course, Buddhism.

In other words, while religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam would likely view "doubt" as a damnable offense, there are other spiritual traditions that seem to view such doubt as a normal part of someone's spiritual journey or go as far as to believe that "God" is purposely obscure, and, as such, does not expect humanity to be able to decipher "Him" as a condition for salvation.

Well, I guess I was just thinking out loud here...

 

[intedomine]

Well I do feel that religious people honestly cannot grasp the fact that I don't believe, and in some instances just truly believe that I haven't "got" it yet.

There is nothing more frustrating...

I'm agnostic, and while I do try to understand how one could have "faith" in supernatural things and while I would like to understand what it is that has driven the human race into believeing in "god", all that I know is that it is blatantly obvious that no one knows the truth about whatever "god" is and if there was a "god" for certain...

But at the end of the day, I convince myself that no one is ever gonna know for sure, and that "god" is ultimately therefore something not worth even giving a toss about...why ponder over something when you're never gonna arrive at a conclusion. It's kinda liberating in a sense, I feel pure...

That said, I do believe that all human beings are in a sense born Agnostic... Our ideas of "god" are usually developed when we are innocent and philosophically vulnerable young 'uns. It is the older people and their religions who influence our initial ideas of "god" or whatever "god" is....

 

[maycocksean]

I dunno. . .to me belief is kind of overrated. I would never say "as long as you believe in something. . ." as if belief has some sort of inherent moral value. I really don't believe it does.

I don't think that being an atheist or agnostic is some sort of moral failing.

And I say that as a believer.

 

[daygloeyes2]

I consider myself agnostic. I don't particularly care for orgainized religion, but I do believe in a higher power.