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Old 06-08-2003, 04:04 PM   #16
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I don't want to take this thread off topic either, but I'm really curious as to exactly what Dreadsox means about "revisionist history" in this thread. Could you just briefly outline what you mean, and perhaps we could start another thread if it seems like there's an interesting discussion there?
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Old 06-08-2003, 04:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I am 100% for the United States Governement working to help correct this situation in Vietnam.
most likely
I'm wondering whether when the decision was made to use agent orange they were aware of the consequences
and if not if you can even use a weapon while not aware of the consequences it's going to have
(I'll just assume that the powers that be thought there was no other option but to use a weapon like this)

I agree with hiphop and angie
way too much pain
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Old 06-08-2003, 04:59 PM   #18
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Dreadsox,

If I am not mistaken, when the US normalized relations with Vietnam in the mid 90s (95?) one of the conditions was that Vietnam had to drop all claims for reparations. I find this to be sad and lame, but that's where we stand today.
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Old 06-09-2003, 02:54 PM   #19
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Compare how much they payed for the survivors of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Vietnam attacks (also don't forget what they did at the Bikini islands) and how much an American Civilist would get at a US courthouse if some company for example would do such a physical and psychological harm.

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Old 06-09-2003, 06:16 PM   #20
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Lets remember that Agent Orange was used to thin out jungle area's so the military could better target North Vietnamese forces and Vietcong. The ability to better target such forces naturally reduces the number of civilians that are accidently killed in the crossfire. While there may be ill effects from Agent Orange that were not known at the time, we must remember what the alternative to Agent Orange would have been in these heavily forested area's, massive B-52 Carpet Bombing with 500 pound bombs. Its uncertain precisely who has been effected by Agent Orange and who has not, but it is certain based on other experiences, that large numbers of Vietnamese civilians would of have been killed if Agent Orange had not been used. We have to remember this was the 1960s before the era of precision weapons, advanced technology for recon and detection of targets, and information warfare. To a certain degree, much of the Vietnam War was still fought with the tactics and technology of World War II.

Increases in US military technology and training(due largely to heavier defense spending during the Reagan/Bush years) have dramatically reduced the number of civilian losses when the US goes to war now.
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Old 06-09-2003, 06:28 PM   #21
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we must remember what the alternative to Agent Orange would have been in these heavily forested area's, massive B-52 Carpet Bombing with 500 pound bombs.
What about the alternative of just getting the F*** out?




I guess that would have been bad for Dow? Chemical.
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Old 06-09-2003, 07:03 PM   #22
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Deep,

"What about the alternative of just getting the F*** out?"




"I guess that would have been bad for Dow? Chemical."


Well, we eventually did just that which led to the death of over a million civilians in South Vietnam and decades of torture and abuse and enslavement by the Communist North. Of course the situation is a little more complex than that and this could easily be tied into a thread called Vietnam 1945-1975 and what should or should not have been done.

I simply pointed out fact that I had not seen anyone mention given the topic of this thread.
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Old 06-09-2003, 07:05 PM   #23
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American Justice for victims of agent Orange.






Quote:
Supreme Court Splits on Agent Orange Lawsuit
Mon June 9, 2003 10:43 AM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court said on Monday that one Vietnam War veteran diagnosed with cancer can sue Agent Orange's manufacturers over exposure to the defoliant, despite a 1984 global class-action settlement.
But it set aside a ruling that allowed a second veteran to sue, and sent his lawsuit back for further consideration.

The case involved Daniel Stephenson and Joe Isaacson, who alleged their exposure to the herbicide sprayed by the U.S. military during the war caused their illnesses.

Stephenson, a helicopter pilot who served in Vietnam from 1965 to 1970, was diagnosed with bone marrow cancer in 1998. Isaacson, in Vietnam from 1968 to 1969 while working at a base for airplanes that sprayed the chemical, was diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma in 1996.

An equally divided court, by a 4-4 vote, affirmed a U.S. appeals court ruling that Stephenson can sue. Justice John Paul Stevens did not take part in the case, but gave no reason why he did not participate.

A number of chemical companies, including Dow Chemical Co. and Monsanto Co., the two biggest makers of Agent Orange, had appealed to the Supreme Court.

The companies in the 1984 settlement agreed to pay $180 million to veterans who were exposed to Agent Orange and then died or became ill. The payments were made for 10 years, and the settlement provided no payments for death or disability occurring after Dec. 31, 1994.

A federal judge dismissed the lawsuits by the two plaintiffs on the grounds they were bound by the 1984 settlement.

But the appeals court disagreed and ruled that Stephenson and Isaacson learned of their alleged injuries only after the settlement fund expired in 1994. It said the two plaintiffs could not be constitutionally bound by the 1984 settlement.

A number of business groups supported the companies, saying that reopening settlements in later years will only deter future settlements. The plaintiffs were supported by veterans groups, trial lawyers and six states.

In a two-paragraph ruling, the Supreme Court did not reach the merits of the dispute. It sent the Isaacson case back for further consideration in view of a high court decision in a different case last year and it simply affirmed the appeals court ruling for Stephenson because the justices deadlocked.
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Old 06-09-2003, 07:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Deep,

"What about the alternative of just getting the F*** out?"




"I guess that would have been bad for Dow? Chemical."


Well, we eventually did just that which led to the death of over a million civilians in South Vietnam and decades of torture and abuse and enslavement by the Communist North. Of course the situation is a little more complex than that and this could easily be tied into a thread called Vietnam 1945-1975 and what should or should not have been done.

I simply pointed out fact that I had not seen anyone mention given the topic of this thread.
Sting,

I know you have VN Vets in the family.

The owner of my company is a VN vet and i know quite a few vets.

It is a complicated issue and making judgements out of context and time is not always fair.

but, let's be honest and not sugar coat it.

Back in the 60s and 70s we did not give a damn if a few slopes got cooked.
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Old 06-09-2003, 07:41 PM   #25
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Deep,

"Back in the 60s and 70s we did not give a damn if a few slopes got cooked."

Even if that is true, it does not change the fact that if Agent Orange was not used, 500 Pound bombs dropped from B-52s would have been used to clear thickly forested area's resulting in far more destruction. Were not just talking a few deaths, but tens of thousands or high percentage of those that suffer from the effects of the chemicals today.

In addition if the USA had no concern at all for innocent Vietnamese life, it would have been rather easy to employ small battlefield nuclear weapons of which the USA had thousands of by the 1960s. The first artillery weapon to fire a small nuclear shell was tested in 1953.

But, again this was a time before the era of precision weapons and information warfare. Heavy civilian loss of life was especially in urban situations, a given. But "winning hearts and minds" became an important strategy and using what was believed to be a harmless chemical instead of dropping thousands of 500 pound bombs to clear a certain area, would obviously be more successful in accomplishing that goal.
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Old 06-09-2003, 08:43 PM   #26
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Sting,
I remember very well when Agent Orange was used.
The prevailing attitude in America was that it was a reasonable thing to do.
I do not remember any international opposition to it. But, of course I was watching US network TV.
I know when it was used it was not possible to just get out. It took many years of no success and loss American lives and a supposed Paris Peace accord for us to leave.
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Old 06-09-2003, 09:42 PM   #27
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But, again this was a time before the era of precision weapons and information warfare. Heavy civilian loss of life was especially in urban situations, a given.
Those are all facts.

But it makes me profoundly sad. What the hell did those children die for? Absolutely nothing at all.

6 out of the 7 days of the week, I think I'd rather be my dog. At least his species hasn't tried to annihilate itself over and over and over again. We're pretty sad.
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:57 PM   #28
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Those are all facts.

But it makes me profoundly sad. What the hell did those children die for? Absolutely nothing at all.

6 out of the 7 days of the week, I think I'd rather be my dog. At least his species hasn't tried to annihilate itself over and over and over again. We're pretty sad.
not just that...you can relax most of the day...no real obilgations...and when you wanna go...the stress of hitting the toilet is mysteriously absent..the world is your urinal
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Old 06-16-2003, 10:58 PM   #29
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not just that...you can relax most of the day...no real obilgations...and when you wanna go...the stress of hitting the toilet is mysteriously absent..the world is your urinal
Yes, my tulips are profoundly aware of this. But I don't wanna drink from the toilet...
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