After Beslan, its Jakarta

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History of terror attacks in Indonesia
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December 2000 - Christian churches bombings kill 19
October 2002 - Bali attacks kill 202, many Australian
December 2002 - Blast at McDonald's in Sulawesi kills three
August 2003 - Bomb at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta kills 13
September 2004 - Bomb outside Australian embassy in Jakarta
 
If a terrorist group tried to scare us into cutting down the US alliance and play nice and they start to kill people then I would not cower at the threat.

The statement was quite strong, but I stand by it. If Australian citizens are killed because Australia holds true to its values then so be it, we will not surrender in the face of terror. I would go furthur and say that it will strengthen our resolve to stare down these despotic killers but judging by a lot of my friends that probably isnt true.

Alliances make us strong because divided we will fall.

The killers here just killed 11 innocent Indonesian civilians, they are indiscrimate in their violence but their intention is clear, they want to bring about violence to destabilize the region and allow a renewed caliphate to arise throughout SE Asia. Every time that these monsters kill innocent people, inocent Muslisms they loose support for their cause,

My deepest sympathies to the victims and again my hatred towards those behind it - may they be captured and interrogated by the TNI.
 
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Pity the rest of the world is so fucking woeful at ending terrorism. They still hate us, hate America, hate everyone. But clap on the back for us for all being so bloody minded and consistant.
 
Terrorism will not cease until its supporters dissapear, best way to do that is to bring freedom, prosperity and equality to the poor downtrodden masses. Then the support for the death-cultists ceases and they will not be able to operate. Global Liberation is the name of the game, unfortunately there is no country or organization that can deliver it so we have to stick with whats on offer, the US.

If it is consistently bloody minded to think that alliances must be held even if mutual enemies kill innocents to break them then I guess that I am just a consistenly bloody minded person.
 
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If you're so happy for the innocent to die while we're all fighting this, then why not simply kill all the terrorists? Wouldn't you rather they die than the collateral innocent?

If any?
 
Happy for the innocent to die, most certainly not. I want to see a world free of violence and suffering but that doesnt seem to be on the cards right now.

Facing the fact that innocent people will be killed by terrorists as they try to divide allies, that I agree with.

I do not will death upon the innocent but we have to be realistic, "terrorists" are really Islamists, they represent a school of thought within Islam that dictates Islam is the only thing. There must be nothing other than Islam on the earth, every man woman and child must be dedicated to Islam and every person must be governed by Sharia. They kill for their cause and they will continue killing until all that stand in their way are dead.

These groups are a death cult, they embrace death and will kill because of the sheer spiritual euphoria they get from indulging their bloodlust. They will not stop, they will kill and use Islam as an excuse, they will continue killing more and more people.

The only way to stop them is to fight them and remove any support they recieve. This can be done by fighting them millitarily, economically and socially. A global Marshall plan to bring peace, democracy and liberty to the entire world is the only way that Islamists can be stopped. They will resist all these measures and use violence to stop our success, they will direct violence against innocents - that is the price we must pay if we expect to succeed. The price of failure would be every single person dead in a global peace of the grave. I know where I stand and I make no apologies for it, where do you stand?
 
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Sorry, I know you're not happy for the innocent to die, I didn't mean literally.
A global marshall sounds interesting. I really dont know where I stand. It bothers me greatly every time innocent life is lost for a 'cause'. It goes against everything I believe, in that there is very little more important than life itself and certainly no idea ever is. However that kind of idealism gets us nowhere and these groups continue to kill at will. For them, I have no sympathy or patience. The idea of removing them completely is not something I can quite come to grips with. I dont know. I really dont.
 
A_Wanderer said:
A global Marshal plan to bring peace, democracy and liberty to the entire world
I wonder whetehr we have the means to achieve this and I worry whether the willingness is really there

we should focus on the entire world though
because otherwide we'll only end up being more devided
 
I don't think the willingness for a global scale plan exists yet, but if we can succeed in Iraq over the next decade then I think it will initiate a chain effect that can usher in freedoms and accelerate social progress in the region. As this happens the economic factors will start to adapt and the social change will quickly follow, there is a lot of potential in the Islamic World, whether this is for better or worse is yet to be seen but it may surprise us all when push comes to shove.

This will be one of the more interesting factors of the 21st Century because the liberal democracy has proved robust against two despotic foes (Fascism and Communism), the major ideology it has to defeat is Political Islam, this is the battle for "hearts and minds" and this will determine a lot in terms of power structures as the world contnues shifting into the new paradigm.

Oddly enough I am not a beliver in the United Nations as a guarantor for any such action. The UN is entrenched with protecting the status quo and giving despots the ability to bitch at the Jews to no end, it is a corrupt organization that betrays its noble principles.

First we were tribes
Then we were kingdoms
Then we were nations
Then we were economic blocs
Where do we go from here?
 
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I don't know
most of life seems to happen in cycles
so maybe we're going back to being nations in 50 years time

maybe not

I am quite sure this won't be determined by what happens in Iraq though
 
Wanderer-- so this seems like it's al Qaeda I'm assuming. what does Australia think about what the US is doing in Afghanistan vs. Iraq? Same question posed to any of you in Spain, particularly after the bombing there in March.

Not trying to start a fight but we in the U.S. don't hear very often what those outside of the country think about our policies.
 
I think Jemaah Islamiah are being blamed for this. Iraq might have a little more approval as there is more to hate in Hussein etc. Both have been debated into the ground and both fuel more reasons to hate Howard who's head remains firmly up W's arse.
 
I think A_Wanderer raised an interesting point back there, about how it is important to stand by your principle no matter what. The ultimate test, I think, would be for interested parties to say 'I would be prepared to die for such an ideal'. In other words, A_Wanderer - you.

'If the price of holding true to ones alliances is paid in blood then so be it.' That could well be substantial enough, but what if its 'your' blood? It sounds good, but I for one don't want my blood to be spilled, and I would not be happy at all for it to be spilled in the name of an increasingly controversial war.

I take issue with the deaths of the innocents, some of whom probably did not support the direction in which the War Against Terrorism has taken, while those who decide war are protected in their offices, be they in the White House or Downing Street.

I am not attacking you, A_Wanderer, if those are your convictions then I am glad that you find it acceptable to die for them - I would not. This is a tragedy, and it must have been a particular tragedy for those that were killed and who didn't even support the West's current military actions. In this War against Terrorism, it really does look like its the people who pay for it, not politicians.

Ant.
 
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I guess it wont be long before there is a blast on Australian soil, it is terrible that these things are happening, but I do believe that if Australia was not involved in this whole 'war on terror' then we would not be targeted. I dont believe in the war on Terror and I dont believe or support Australian intervention in this war. Extremists of any denomination are a dangerous breed- what is the answer? do we get rid of them all, say no to any form of extremist action and create a golbal ethnocentric world????

I do believe that the world is slowly becoming a bi-polar world again, this time instead of it being east and west it is christian and muslim fighting each other, I guess that the only thing that nations can do is ask themselves where they stand and I firmly believe that Australian foreign policy should be very careful, not intimidated, but careful as we reside below the largest Muslim country in the world (Indonesia). I think Australian foregin policy should be respectuful of our neighbours and get away form the current "American ass licking political rhetoric' that we have been hearing since 911.......................waffling, I know, but basically I dont think that there are many Australians who agree with Australian intervention on the 'war on terror' and therefore to use A_Wanderers school of thought, I dont think that backing out would be giving in and therefore as I see it Australia would be making a much bigger political statement (listening to its people) and standing up for itself, rather than being a shadow and political whore of America:|
 
I would not just lay down my life unconditionally to a cause, but I would be willing to be placed at risk, as we are now. We have gone (in the Islamist eyes) from being much hated infidels to slightly more much hated infidels. I have no problem with this if it means if we can hold true to our alliances and our real friends. We will never fully be an Asian nation, we shouldnt have any illusion that we can - engage strongly with Asia for sure but when push comes to shove and there is a major threat I would much rather have the USA on side.

This is all a moot point though because when it comes to western targets in SE Asia we are it, JI and other Islamist groups will kill innocent people no matter what, the responsibility for us is to make sure that their violence does not give them control over our decisions.
 
Every man has the right for himself to decide how he wants to live his life. I don't believe he has a right to decide whether it's fine for other innocent people to be given up. Sorry, I don't want my brother blown up, or my mother or my lover. If you want to sacrifice yours in the name of your alliance, feel free to do so, but you've got no right to make decisions about the worth of other people's families.

I lived once through this type of "individual has no worth compared to the society" belief system once, it was called Communism and once was quite enough for me, thank you very much.
 
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