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Old 02-01-2005, 09:37 AM   #31
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Yeah, I sometimes forget that FAFSA doesn't work well for everybody. I worked into "the mold" as an undergrad because I was married and had a kid. Heck, my wife and I were making $8000 per school year in grants just to go to school. However, my sister-in-law who was independent from age 19 still had her dad's $100K Novell tax info on her FAFSA. I mean, she owned a house at 23 and still couldn't get subsidized or unsubsidized Stafford loans.

Sorry for living in my world a little too much and not stepping out. The FAFSA is not fair for everybody. And honestly, I think I'm in the minority when it comes to college students.

I guess what I was trying to say is that there should be a cap on funding in general. I know there is for federal funding but I had a friend who was making almost $10K per semester just to go to school. She was intelligent and won a lot of scholarships but she ended up squandering her education (her words, not mine) and didn't finish college. Is there a cap for private scholarships? I mean, if an individual gets enough from outside sources to cover the FAFSA calculated costs of student living, then maybe they shouldn't receive university funding even though they qualify for it.

thanks for the comments.
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:35 PM   #32
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I agree, U2utah. It's nice to have someone who can relate to the FAFSA fiasco, even if it didn't happen to you personally. Luckily, my parents aren't rich (hence the not supporting me financially), but they're still a lot richer than I am when it comes to these forms.
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:09 PM   #33
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Creating opportunities and providing support are great things that should be done, but should be done in a color-blind manner.

why should opportunity and support be color-blind? everyone else, everything else, sees color. difference is a fact of life, race is a fact of life.

other than that, i agree with everything BVS has said (as usual).



and can we talk about Affirmative Action for athletes, children of the ultra wealthy (cause dad might be able to buy new squash courts if Jr. is happy), and legacy children (can you spell B-U-S-H)?
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:15 PM   #34
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why should opportunity and support be color-blind? everyone else, everything else, sees color. difference is a fact of life, race is a fact of life.
What are we teaching then? Some forms of racism are better than others?
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:21 PM   #35
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What are we teaching then? Some forms of racism are better than others?

no. that race matters. race has to do with so many of our social ills, it should be taken into account when evaluating an applicant's potential.

what many white people don't seem to realize (and this is universal, i have no idea what race you are, NBC) is that race has *everything* to do with who they are and where they are and how they see themselves. it is simply easier to be white in American. yes, we can all give anecdotal stories about rich black people, the latino who pulled himself out of the barrio, etc. but on a macro scale, race matters, and it is often an obstacle -- no, you can no longer hire or fire someone on the basis of race. legislation, however, is easy. its the psychological affects of race that are far harder to deal with.

Affirmative Action is far, far from perfect. but it has a purpose, and i do think it has been a net positive, historically. but it should change as America changes.

again: anyone want to talk about Legacy children? football players?

i personally found my college's admission of hockey players who could barely read far, far more offensive than the black kid from the Bronx down the hall.
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:31 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Irvine511



no. that race matters. race has to do with so many of our social ills, it should be taken into account when evaluating an applicant's potential.
Substitute "race" with "socioeconomic background" and I might be inclined to agree, sorta.

A black kid from south central LA who has a 1200 SAT score probably has more academic potential than a black kid from Bel Air who has a 1200 SAT score. But as far as I can tell, colleges don't distinguish between these cases.

For that matter, a Hispanic/native American/Asian/white/etc. kid from south central LA with a 1200 SAT score is probably in the same position.
Quote:

again: anyone want to talk about Legacy children? football players?

i personally found my college's admission of hockey players who could barely read far, far more offensive than the black kid from the Bronx down the hall.
I go to Harvard. Things like this are completely embarrassing. They're also completely irrelevant to the argument at hand.
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Old 02-02-2005, 03:08 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



why should opportunity and support be color-blind? everyone else, everything else, sees color. difference is a fact of life, race is a fact of life.

I agree with crusader. Completely. Why should it come down to colour? I'm really hoping I misunderstand some of you here.
Opportunity should be as available as possible for everyone.
If support is needed more for one individual than another, fine. If it is as a result of colour, it's inconsequential. The need for support still exists. If Billy (who happens to be African American) comes from a poor family and went to a very bad school and wants to go to college, but mum and dad can't afford it, then Billy needs help because he has come from a financially handicapped background. Not because he's black. If there are more Billys on the application forms for aid and assistance than there are Bobs (white kid with middle class background), then fine. The aid is getting where it's needed.

Since when does colour dictate need?
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Old 02-02-2005, 05:19 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

what many white people don't seem to realize (and this is universal, i have no idea what race you are, NBC) is that race has *everything* to do with who they are and where they are and how they see themselves.
So....all white people are the same just b/c they're white and their race doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter, to them? Why does race only get to matter if you have dark skin?
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Old 02-02-2005, 06:42 AM   #39
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So....all white people are the same just b/c they're white and their race doesn't matter, or shouldn't matter, to them? Why does race only get to matter if you have dark skin?

no, white people are not all the same. and i fully agree that socioeconomic status is a bigger determinant of need than race and race alone, but there is the fact that socio-economics in the united states -- and in most western countries, just replace "black" for "south asian" in the UK, for example -- are raced.

i also think that race matters less to white people. an advantage that white people have, that people of color don't have, is that you can think beyond race when you're white. it never really comes into play in most of the decisions you make, from the big to the trivial.

this is a hard think to talk about, and i'll try and give some anecdotal evidence to support what i'm talking about. it is very abstract, so bear with me.

my best friend on earth is south asian indian (american citizen, but clearly of a different race than i). she's hugely advantaged, pretty brilliant, went to a top tier college, etc. does race hold her back? by all conventional standards, absolutely not. in our relationship, and i've told her this, her race to me is cosmetic. it's as meaningful to me as the fact that i have blond hair and blue eyes. with her, i am color blind. i know her parents have accents, and her mom cooks food that is much spicier than my mom's food, but other than that, the differences between us seem unimportant.

but that's to me.

to her, she knows she is different, and every time she turns on the TV, or went to a school dance, or a pep ralley, or watched a romantic movie, she was reminded of how different she was, that she was an outsider, than there are no Indian characters on Friends. there is a subtle psychological toll that race takes when you're forced to deal with it every day. i remember she loved "The English Patient" so much not just because it was beautiful and powerful, but because there was an Indian character, AND he got to have sex. "That never happens in movies!" she said.

my point is that even if you come from an advantaged background, race still matters to you. should she be treated differently by virtue of race in college admissions? yes and no. on one hand, she hardly needed the help (a 1480 SAT goes a long way), but on the other hand, if the point of college is to expose you to new people and experiences and if you're going to a small liberal arts school (like she and i both did) and much of your educaiton comes from class discussions, then having the perspective of someone who is outside the mainstream, outside the dominant culture, is of value.

so, yes, race matters. not as much as socio-economic status, but it does matter, and it is also considered one factor among many when it comes to admissions.

and those who argue for a color blind society seem to be white people. those who aren't white -- and those people who live with real, palpable difference in their lives -- know that's a fantasy.

it's nice to pretend that these things don't matter, but they do, so let's learn to love, respect, and cherish difference, and do what we can to remedy the fact that race has historically played a part in schools, employment, housing, etc., that has resulted in the racially stratified society we currently live in.
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Old 02-02-2005, 08:40 AM   #40
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See, the thing is that I don't really agree that diversity needs to be artificially engineered into a college community. I think it leads to people of different races/backgrounds self-segregating themselves more than it leads to them integrating themselves into a truly cosmopolitan society.

I'm Asian, and it seems to me that a lot of Asians never realized that they were being held down and being discriminated against until they got to college. I never came to this realization. (Not to say that individual attitudes or cases of racism don't exist, but I just don't think it's as pervasive or systematic as others think.)
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Old 02-02-2005, 09:13 AM   #41
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SO is there a concensuss that it would be alright to have affirmative action based on economic need? How would such a system work?
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Old 02-02-2005, 09:17 AM   #42
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See, the thing is that I don't really agree that diversity needs to be artificially engineered into a college community. I think it leads to people of different races/backgrounds self-segregating themselves more than it leads to them integrating themselves into a truly cosmopolitan society.

I'm Asian, and it seems to me that a lot of Asians never realized that they were being held down and being discriminated against until they got to college. I never came to this realization. (Not to say that individual attitudes or cases of racism don't exist, but I just don't think it's as pervasive or systematic as others think.)

in many ways, i agree with you. as i've stated, Affirmative Action is far from perfect, and is really more of a band-aid than a solution. still, i think colleges would be even less cosmopolitan if it were not in place. the goal of affirmative action should be it's own demise; one would hope that it will one day be utterly unnecessary. but we're not there yet.

your second paragraph strikes me as a bit condescending. shouldn't college, a place where higher levels of abstract thinking goes on, teach you exactly how society operates? how race and racism affect your lives even if you are unaware of it? what i think goes on in college is that you become aware of how these things work, how society sends subtle unspoken messages about what is and what isn't normal, what is and what isn't acceptable, and reinforces the present social order. learning how to read these messages is very important, because once you understand how such factors operate on you, you can give them a name, and then resist them.

if you've reached a different conclusion than some of your peers, great. but others obviously see things differently than you, and there are many people of color who sense and interpret things in different ways than you do. i just think it's naive to say that race doesn't matter (not that you've said this). if George W. Bush were Latino, or Asian, would he be president today?
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